LE ROCHEFORT

hi all , i know the problem with eye site, and i do wear a head band magnifying glass picking up a light that attaches to it always wear it now, and definatly corect lighting is essential as to paper i take my plans to FED-X for printing the paper is excellent and i do not get any distortion, and yes it does get expensive, but find it necessary to the build, now showing the frame taking its shape (i think it is getting there) after all frames are complete like this I will start sanding it down to the lines getting ready to mount the frames, and also doing the beveling before the frames are joined to the keel, as always comments and critisims always welcome20200211_055337.jpg20200211_055436.jpg
 
Hi Don,
"Sorry" for the critic of your last image......
But this is probably why you find some differences with the overall frame patterns:
The result of cumulative effect of some of these points.

In any case, today I hope to have time to make a frame (not for Rochefort though) using the paper pasted technique (a first for me) and see how it goes: I will post images hopefully at the end of the day.

20200211_055436 copy.jpg



G.
 
Hi Don,
"Sorry" for the critic of your last image......
But this is probably why you find some differences with the overall frame patterns:
The result of cumulative effect of some of these points.

In any case, today I hope to have time to make a frame (not for Rochefort though) using the paper pasted technique (a first for me) and see how it goes: I will post images hopefully at the end of the day.

A quick test and here is the result and some observations....

Frame part patterns cut and pasted on wood, then individual parts have been cut (by hand).

frame paper 1.jpg

Frame part joint-line as it goes through the disk sander.

frame paper 2.jpg

The joint-line has been sanded.

frame paper 3.jpg
frame paper 4.jpg

The fit of all parts have been check against the whole frame pattern during the process: basically dry fitting all the parts as the joint lines are worked on the disk sander. Sort of building up the frame but not being glued.
Then, once satisfied with the dry fit (in this case I did not have to adjust anything: ie - joint lines), the frame can be assembled (all parts glued together) over the pattern of the entire frame: which has been done for this image. I have given about an hour for the glue to set, but normally the frame is set-aside for at least 6 hours for the glue to cure. And then, next to the next frame......

All frame components were aligned. The image does not really shows that but it is due to the angle of view for the photo.....

frame paper 6.jpg

Detail view on one of the joint lines.
I tried to sand in a way that would result in having 1/2 the line thickness on each part so that when assembled I get a full line.
But one could easily keep the whole line on one part and sand the entire line on the part forming the opposite side of the joint.

frame paper 5.jpg

Again, this was a quick test and the first time I really use this process as I find it to be a bit messy, especially having to scrape off the paper before gluing the second layer of the frame: but I have not given much thought about this and there probably is a remedy for it.

All in all, the technique is widely used and it WORKS. It is probably more accurate from the start than what I normally do, but then again, that is why I leave more material around the frame than most.

I had to use 3 copies of the frame to get all the individual parts cutout. The paper was then glued to the wood using white craft glue and I did not encounter any deformation problem. Once the paper was glued onto the wood, the whole thing was covered with a piece of glass and set-aside before handling and cutting: just to make sure the white glue had time to dry.

From what is described in this post, the next step would be square the edges of the assembled frame leaving 0.5 to 1 millimeter extra material around the contour of the frame, Except that in some cases, the floor and half floor timber may need to be notched before assembly, and Le Rochefort does need that to be done as these notches are of different size from one layer to the other, on the same frame.

G.
 
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Hi GILLES do not worry about critisms this is what I neede to be better at what i am doing, i do understand about the paper pattern i have been doing the over cut freehand and not being concerned about the effects of doing it this way and i have changed my way of doing the patterens by using ships curves to get the flow right, i use rubber cement to attach the patterns ( ELMERS) and when i the patterns come off easily and a quick sanding gets the residue off, i will post more pictures latter today, you said something that caught my attention you said that you took the pattern off to attach the second part of the double frame i have not been doing that and i do not attach the whole frame but by the individual pieces starting with the floor timbers then the individual floor timbers am i doing it correctly. AGAIN MANY THANKS Don
 
you said something that caught my attention you said that you took the pattern off to attach the second part of the double frame i have not been doing that and i do not attach the whole frame but by the individual pieces starting with the floor timbers then the individual floor timbers am i doing it correctly.

Hi Don,

Personally, I find it easier to build the frame layer by layer, working fairly quickly. That is why I spend a lot of time dry fitting to make sure everything lines up from one layer to the next before the glue goes down. The bottom layer is lightly glued (white craft glue) to a sheet of tracing paper with the frame pattern traced on it. I apply wood glue to the joints.
I lay down and glue the individual parts of the bottom layer starting with the floor-timber, then the futtocks all the up to the top on each side. Again working fairly quickly, once the first layer is laid down / parts glued together, I lay the top layer over, starting with the two 1/2 floor-timbers, then the futtocks all the way up to the top on each side.
The reason why I do it this way: I use the bottom layer as a guide for the top layer (because everything on that bottom layer is already lined up with the pattern) and it allows me to always work on a uninterrupted flat surface, as well, the bottom layer has all the contour line traced on it to guide me for the top layer: double checking the alignment of each part. I do not wait for the glue to dry on the bottom layer, I move on to the top layer right away, then set the assembled frame aside to dry sandwiched between 2 piece of glass and weight on top.
I am not sure that leaving the paper pattern sandwiched between the two layers is a good idea in the long run. That is also one of the reasons why I transfer the patterns using tracing paper. This way I automatically have wood to wood contact between layers.
I may be wrong but this is what I have been doing for the past 4 decades and I may be stuck in my old ways.

Lastly just to reiterate: I DO NOT PRETEND THAT THE WAY I WORK IS THE BEST WAY, it is just what I am used to. Surely others have a different technique so please chime in. Thank you.

Regards.
G
 
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Hello Don, Sorry to see that you are having troubles. When I built the frames for my Oliver Cromwell I taped my set of plans to the underside of a piece of glass and then as I disk sanded them to shape I lay them on top of the glass and then used clamps to hold them in place. This way I could achieve a good fit. The glass should be a little larger than your frame section so that your clamps will reach. I also disk sanded just up to the line on your plans, never going over it and then tweaking the joint for the fit. Only then would I glue the frame pices together. I hope this helps, it looks like you have a great build ahead of you.
Regards Lawrence
 
THANK YOU GILLES and LAWRENCE, Gilles this is exactly the method I am using, the only difference is the use of pins and yes UWE$ they do drive me nuts, but i do it this because i can not stand without support so had to adept to my circustances, and i do not sandwich the paper between the laye5rs, i leave them on both sides, i also as you can see leaving a lot of meat on the frames i will leave them like this until all frames are done then start thesanding to get them close to the line, i am concerned about a lot of sanding once frame is placed in the jig/slip asthe top timbers narrow a whole lot, using a lot of fillers, showing the beginings of another frame, the joints are getting a lot better, have one joint to fix, PLEASE all members as GILLES said chip in with your methods members from masters to novice4s we would LOVE TO HERE YOUR INPUT20200213_060326.jpg
 
that is very good advice from Gills and Lawrence
I do about the same thing building frames the only difference I do is
focus on getting the joinery tight between frame pieces once I have a frame blank built I glue the frame pattern on it in one piece the proceed to sand the final frame shape

but your getting better and better at it
 
THANKS ALL, i think i am getting there, I just have to be EXTRA CAREFUL in doing this process, can not rush this, DAVE one of the things with cutting frames in one piece is how do you do the milling for keel and keelson frame notches, THANK YOU ALL FOR INPUT, MORE PLEASE. Don
If you place the cut out frame flat, you'll be able to mill the notches and when done, square two corners with a chisel. Keep up the good work, Don.
 
hi all the frames are getting better, the joints are getting better not quite there yet but getting there, now came ACROSS ANOTHER PROBLEM, on this frame No.9 i have witch to me is critical. THANKS AGAIN Don20200214_220105.jpg20200214_220205.jpg a problem with the top timber being to long on one side, i checked all the dimensions tor correct size they all check out on the plans, I THINK I CAN FIX THIS ONE, BUT NEED ADVICE AND HELP IN CASE I CAN NOT NHOW WOULD YOU FIX THIS OTHER THEN NRE-DOING THE WHOLE FRAME, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY HOW DO I AVOID THIS HAPP_ENING ON OTHER FRAMES ESPECIALLY FRAMES No.1thru5
 
Hi Gilles what i do and i will post a picture of a frame tomorrow, what i do is i start with the floor timber and i align that with the KEEL NOTCH and then add the futtocks aligning and sanding the joint lines my problem could be in how i align the notches being all the meat i leave on the frame, if there is a better way please let me know, i have pictures of my fix for FRAME No.9 by adding a piece at the top aligning it with the plans for the top futtock, is there a betterway happy the way the joint lines are working out, will post the pictures tomorrow. THANKS AGAIN Don
 
Hi Don,

Your problem must be due to only having the keel notch as a reference for lining up your 2nd layer.
If I understand correctly your build your frame this way:
1) Transfer of the frame parts (patterns) to wood (paper cutouts glued to the wood).
2) Cut individual wood parts.
3) Work on joint lines with disk sander.
4) Built layer 1 (frame's bottom layer) over the frame plan: aligning everything according to the full frame pattern: paper patterns facing up. Starting with the floor-timber and working your way up to the top-timbers.
5) Flip layer 1 so that the paper patterns end up face down.
5) Build layer 2 over layer 1 (layer 1 is now showing no lines) only aligning the 1/2 floor timber notch to layer 1. The rest of the 2nd layer parts being butted together without alignment reference.
6) once the frame is assembled you have the paper patterns showing on layer 2, flipping the frame over you also have paper patterns showing on layer 1 as well.

If so, because the frames are built leaving a lot of meat, you have little or no reference to built layer 2 on top of layer 1.

The bottom line is that you need the original line contour and the joint lines of the frame and as a reference to built each frame correctly.
So maybe you need to extend a few lines on your overall paper frame pattern so that, at least, you have some points of reference in every step of frame assembly.
You could extend the top of the frame lines as well as the joint lines. (similar to what you see in the first image below)

PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING NOTES VERY CAREFULLY understanding that this is only a suggestion to help you digest the frame building process. By no mean, this is the best process but I think that it will help you.

Here is an alternative frame building process to keep your basic needs for alignment, working from one layer to the next.
I can tell you that everything described below can be done while sitting down. The only thing is that you need to be able to look at your work from above: so you need an adjustable office chair if you have one, or a table that is a bit lower than normal. You can of course adapt everything to your particular needs.

USE SCRAP WOOD and PRACTICE on one frame. Follow and alter the technique if need bet........ but concentrate on one frame until you get it right.

This is important (probably the most important words you will read in this post):
The best frame to practice on is you master frame (frame marked as 15-Mav ) as it is one of the few that are not as confusing with bevels, etc.... This frames only shows basic contour lines.
Work on this frame until you get it right. Work slow, and only get exited about working on this frame: only look forward to getting this one right for now...

Note: this is not a frame from ROCHEFORT but the basic process will be the same.
Step 1)
Extend your original line pattern like this: top timber straight up, joint lines extended past what you anticipate your wood parts to be: taking into account the extra meat you leave on the wood parts.
Keep this copy of the overall frame pattern to the side until your frame is assembled.


01 frame.jpg

Step 2)
Transfer the frame pattern to a sheet of tracing paper: again, especially making sure that the joint lines are extended well past the size of the individual wood parts once you'll have cut them.
This is the basis for your frame construction. Make sure this is as accurate as possible.
Notes on tracing from original pattern to tracing paper:
a) Tape tracing paper sheet to the original pattern. Trace all lines relevant to the specific frame you are working on
b) Trace the lines using a pencil with lead on the hard side: I use 2H
Again make sure the joint line are long and as accurate as you can make them.
c) Once you have traced the original lines, flip the tracing paper sheet up-side down and go over the lines again with a softer lead pencil: I use a 2B
at this stage, you really only need the contour lines: you do not really need the bevel lines.

02 frame.jpg

Step 3)
Cutout of the paper pattern needed for the top layer of the frame (end layer) only.
Please note that the pattern extends past the joint lines at this point.

03 frame.jpg

Step 4)
a) Glue the paper pattern to the wood: again paper patterns will be your 2nd layer.
b) Transfer the individual parts of layer 1 from tracing paper to wood.
The end result should look like this: parts for layer 1 (bottom layer) pencil lines, layer 2 (top layer) paper patterns.
Again, please note that when you cut around the patterns, you are not cutting to the joint line. Your final joint line is worked at the sander.

04 frame.jpg

Step 5
Cut individual parts, including the notches of the floor and half floor-timbers since they are different from one layer to the next. But that may not even be needed as they can be cut later once your frame is assembled.
Work on joint lines accuracy with the disk sander: spending time dry fitting each part to make sure all lines up according to the overall frame pattern. Start with the floor-timber and work your way up as if your were assembling the frame: piece by piece. You can fit each part individually on the frame plan as well as to checking the fit of the frame overall: as you progress and add parts butted to each other all the way up the frame.

Step 6
Once all you joint lines have been checked, assemble the 1st layer over your tracing paper sheet (you should tape down the tracing paper so that it does not move on you): aligning the parts with the pattern. You need to work on a flat stable surface (glass work well). That bottom surface is the same for the whole process. If you glue the parts to the tracing paper, which itself is taped to your work surface (glass), you can actually build the whole frame without having to move anything while you work. Do not lift the first layer once assembled. If you need to move what you have assembled, just move you work surface (again, glass works well).
The assembly of the first layer is where I personally use 2 types of glue as explained in one of my previous posts: craft glue for the bottom face of each part to secure the part to the tracing paper, wood glue for the joints between parts.
The image below shows individual parts assembled on half the frame (this particular frame is made of 2 separate halves), but keep going until the entire first layer is done.

05 Frame.jpg

Step 7
Once the 1st layer is assembled, move on to the 2nd layer right away: again, not moving anything from the work surface. This time only wood glue is used.
As your 1st layer has the contour lines showing, all you have to do is to use them as reference for your second layer. You actually have 2 references: a) the contour lines from layer 1 and b) the extended joint lines from the pattern (tracing paper).
Once the pieces of your second layer are glued to your first layer, do not lift it from the work surface, do not use clamps to hold anything in place, just adjust you pins to fit the second layer as you go if you want: you may even realize that the pins are not needed anymore.

06 frame.jpg
20200214_171851.jpg
20200214_171911.jpg

Once arrived at the stage shown in the image above, place a flat surface (glass works very well) over top of the assembly, some weight on top, and let it all dry.

The images show lines with a slight offset by in reality the lines match: top layer is aligned with the lines from the first layer and the joint lines on the pattern. The offset is due to the angle of view when the photo is taken.

The frame shown here is made of 2 half-frames, which you do not have on your ship but the basic process is the same.

Step 8
Set assembly aside for the glue to cure.

Step 9
Once the glue is dry, rip the tracing paper off the bottom face of layer 1: all the lines should still be there for later use.
At this point you can verify the fit of the frame over the original frame pattern (image shown is step 1). Then you can square off the contour of the frame

Again,
To end up with a frame that will fit into line pattern, you need to keep as many reference points as possible during the process. The joints need to be tight and accurate.

On a side note.
Gluing the individual parts of the 1st layer to the tracing paper pattern has 2 purposes:
a) it holds the frame in place while parts are being assemble together.
b) once the frame has been assemble and the tracing paper ripped out, all the lines show on the back face of the frame, which is helpful if one wants to shape the bevels.

Hope this helps.
And once again, This is only a suggestion.....

To ALL, Sorry for the long post.
Regards.
G.
 
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Hi Don,
Here is part of the process for frame # 15-Mav

Tracing the entire frame pattern from the original...

If you carefully look at the image below, you will see that I have extended the top timber by 1 cm compared to the original drawing seen in the center of the frame.
after doing so, the frame kind of looks like a frame Mr Hahn would have drawn. At this point, the extension is mostly there to help you with the alignment of the parts at the top-timber level. Yes you would include it in the frame as you build it but eventually , this type of extension would just get cut off once the entire framing of the ship is done. Although they do have a other purpose down the road. The second purpose of these extensions is to provide room for either (or actually both) cross-battens / strips at the top to hold the spacing of each frame when you assemble the hull, or to attach a strip along the outside of the hull to hold the frames in place at the top until you are ready to work on the inside.

20200215_094605 a.jpg

Then, a view of the tracing on its own...
This is what I would use as the base to build the frame on, as the parts forming the bottom layer would be glued on this sheet.

20200215_094647 a.jpg

From there individual parts for the two layers were cut out and pasted or traced on the wood.

Transferring the patterns from tracing paper to wood:
as indicated somewhere above, once you have traced the original entire frame pattern onto the tracing paper with a hard lead pencil (again I use 2H for that), flip the tracing paper over and go over the lines again (carefully) with a softer (but sharp) lead pencil (HB will work but I use 2B). Once that is done, to transfer the lines to the wood, all you have to do is flip the tracing paper sheet again so the side that has the lines traced with the hard lead pencil is on top, soft lead on the bottom against the wood. Now all you have to do is go over the lines (part by part (individual floor-timbers and futtocks) again with your hard lead pencil: kind of like using old fashion carbon paper. This process need to be done carefully as you cannot move the paper while transferring the lines to the wood. Again, this can be done easily if you look at your work from above so raise your chair to be comfortable.
You will end up with something looking just like the paper patterns on your wood: see image posted in step 4 of my previous post.

Then the individual parts were cut. The joint lines were precisely sanded.

This is the dry fitting of parts over the original frame plan.
Some part showing the paper pattern glued on, some traced from the tracing paper.
These views show the careful dry fitting of the top layer of the frame: Starting with the two 1/2 floor-timbers then working my way out and up the frame.
It is supposed to show all the parts with the paper pattern pasted on them, but I screwed up with the top-timber, so those are shown as duplicated from the tracing paper.
Anyways you get the idea.
From there, I would separately dry fit all the parts for the bottom layer. These parts would not have any paper pattern on them, just the lines transferred from the tracing paper. This way the frame does not have to be handled from one layer to the next in order to have wood to wood contact between the two layers for final assembly of all the parts: working from one layer to the next..

Then, you would proceed as described in my last post to complete the assembly.

But before assembly / gluing......
Dry fitting parts and checking joint lines...

20200215_110624 a.jpg

20200215_110633 a.jpg

20200215_110618 a.jpg

and the whole layer...

20200215_110639 a.jpg

I will just add that the keel notch for this layer has been cut.
The same would be done for the other layer, dry fitted on it own.
Separately, If both layers match the lines on the overall frame pattern, then the second layer will fit and, more importantly, line up over top the first layer without problem.

I am not showing the bottom layer here, but you get the idea...

G

PS: By the way, compared to what I am working on right now, these frames are pretty small.... :)
 
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