HIGH HOPES, WILD MEN AND THE DEVIL’S JAW - Willem Barentsz Kolderstok 1:50

rtibbs said:
If you would only have listened to me in the beginning. :D
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ROTF Ron I have to caution you. When this information from Zeeland arrives, and it will take a while, it is possible that from a FACTUAL point of view, it puts the whole Zwaan idea out to greener pastures. There is no way of telling. BUT, I will have a heck of a lot more information on which to base a decision.
 
Heinrich said:
ROTF Ron I have to caution you. When this information from Zeeland arrives, and it will take a while, it is possible that from a FACTUAL point of view, it puts the whole Zwaan idea out to greener pastures. There is no way of telling. BUT, I will have a heck of a lot more information on which to base a decision.
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Just pulling your leg H. Your research is definitely more in-depth than mine was. A couple of websites and Goggle search and a arrived at the White Swan.
It’s interesting that when I first posted my Swan Hans contacted me regarding the file however, it was a copyrighted file that I purchased for my use only. At the time I didn’t have the time to work up a design for his use. He also said he would, time permitting, have his designer, I believe his son, come up with one he would provide in his kits. His looks really good!
 
Hans's design does really look good, doesn't it! I will proudly place De Zwaan on my new ship IF I have enough substantial evidence to do so. I believe I am getting close to an answer now - good or bad. The Zeeland archives are simply brilliant.
 
Heinrich, did you get the bestek of the Zeeland ship in your mailbox? or are they sending them to you in writing?? They are very fast in answering your question:)
 
pingu57 said:
Heinrich, did you get the bestek of the Zeeland ship in your mailbox? or are they sending them to you in writing?? They are very fast in answering your question:)
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I am still waiting on the reply of the Archief as far as the two bestekkenboekjes are concerned. As soon as they have informed me whether they could find it or not, I will find out the easiest way of getting all the information I need. I would imagine that it may take some time to find these boekjes as I cannot imagine that they have ever been requested before. They have already informed me that they do have the rest of the data I have requested.
 
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An intrinsic part of doing researching is also mistaking mistakes and getting things wrong. Then you have to owe up, admit it, rectify it and move on from there.

I made such a mistake and now I have to rectify that.

Earlier on, when I reported my findings of the 1594 expedition, I made the following statements:

In any case, when we look at the 1594 Expedition, we know there were three ships: This is INCORRECT - there were FOUR.

1. De Swane which was captained by Cornelis Corneliszoon-Nay from Enkhuizen. Of this ship, I have the article letter issued to Corneliszoon-Nay which stipulates the names of the crew members, their positions, their salaries and exactly what the ship was issued with - very detailed. As supercargo (merchantman) and interpreter on board the Swan went Francois de la Dale who had resided several years in Bussia, and as additional interpreter, " Meester" Christoffel Splindler, a Slavonian by birth, who had studied at the university of Leyden. THIS IS ALL CORRECT.

2. The other vessel was the Mercurius (Mercury) under the command of Brant Ysbrantszoon, otherwise Brant Tetgales, a skillful and experienced sailor, with Claes Corneliszoon as his mate or under-pilot; both being likewise natives of Enkhuysen. On board the Mercurius the supercargo was Jan Huyghen van Linschoten, who was likewise engaged to keep a journal of their progress. This was the ship on which Barentsz sailed in 1594. - THIS IS INCORRECT. Barentsz did not sail on the Mercurius from Enkhuyzen - he sailed aboard a "Jacht" from Amsterdam.

The detail of the third vessel (the Jacht from Amsterdam on which Barentsz sailed) is recorded as follows in the journals of De Veer and Van Linschoten.

3. … van Amsterdam …, The ship was equipped by merchants from the Admiralty Amsterdam and the skipper/captain was Willem Barentsz.

4. The fourth ship was a fishing vessel from Terschelling which also fell under the command of Willem Barentsz. This vessel was also equipped by the Admiralty of Amsterdam.

Now it has come to light that the "Jacht of Amsterdam" on which Barentsz sailed, was in all likelihood ALSO called "De Mercurius". If this is true (and I still have to verify this at the hand of other sources), it would mean that there were in fact two ships called Mercurius and this may just be very important information. Incidentally both Mercurius ships were of 40 lasten - exactly the same size as De Zwaan.
 
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I think this is all part of presenting the results of your research, obtaining new information, which may or may not be supporting your earlier findings and conclusions.
The same applies for (serious) scientific research; one may put forward a certain theory, but that has to be viewed from all angles and all evidence must be evaluated, supporting or contradicting the theory. The true power lays in the fact to not stubbornly keeping to earlier conclusions, but being able to acknowledge other information that does not support your earlier findings, thus requiring an update to one's study.
I wish all scientists were so inclined to admit that earlier conclusions are no longer aoolicable, since other evidence has come available. Thumbsup
 
RDN1954 said:
I think this is all part of presenting the results of your research, obtaining new information, which may or may not be supporting your earlier findings and conclusions.
The same applies for (serious) scientific research; one may put forward a certain theory, but that has to be viewed from all angles and all evidence must be evaluated, supporting or contradicting the theory. The true power lays in the fact to not stubbornly keeping to earlier conclusions, but being able to acknowledge other information that does not support your earlier findings, thus requiring an update to one's study.
I wish all scientists were so inclined to admit that earlier conclusions are no longer aoolicable, since other evidence has come available. Thumbsup
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Thank you Johan. I have no problem to admit when I've made a mistake. I think what makes this research different is that I am not out to prove any point or punt a specific theory. Whether the ship is called Zwaan or Mercurius or in fact, no name, makes no difference to me. I am merely trying to find out what is the truth. And then of course, when we select Option A as the correct one, it has to be for the right reason - we must not accidentally stumble upon it and not be able to prove its provenance.
 
And then follows the sheer and utter disappointment:

Dear Sir

We don't know where these two bestekken books are. They have probably been included before 1940 in a kind of manuscript or acquisition collection which was lost in the fire as a result of the shelling of Middelburg on 17 May 1940.

Zeeuws Archief
 
One cannot help but share in your disappointment Heinrich. All is not lost however, the answer may show up one day and you still possess a very fine ship with the prospect of building another with some real interesting wood choices!
 
This is really sad my friend. I am absolutely positive that many of the questions would have been answered by those two bestekken books. The job is, however, not complete until I have followed the same process with De Mercurius. Only then can I call it a day.
 
This is very pittyfull Heinrich sorry to hear thatthey where lost. but now the eyes forward to the Mercurius, who knows, perhaps the Amsterdammers have something to say about their ships.
 
pingu57 said:
This is very pittyfull Heinrich sorry to hear thatthey where lost. but now the eyes forward to the Mercurius, who knows, perhaps the Amsterdammers have something to say about their ships.
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Peter it is so funny that you should say that. Now I have discovered the politics between the "Amstel-re-dammers" and the rest of the Netherlands. They really didn't like each other - just like you said! ROTF

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In this picture that I posted earlier I mentioned the "near-accident between the Windhond (Barentsz's ship) and the De Hoope which was the ship on which Van Linschoten was the commis. I have now found that the ships did collide and four people actually died. The reason: Neither captain wanted to give way. Barents was the student of Plancius while Zeeland and Enkhuizen followed Staten-General merchant, Baltasar Maucheron.
 
pingu57 said:
I told you so Heinrich ROTF ROTF There was a lot of hate and envy between the city's and regions in the Netherlands back then
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Unfortunately that hate has not made my task any easier - it is even reflected in the archives.
 
dockattner said:
A phrase I heard more than once when visiting the Netherlands and Amsterdam..."not possible." Might the Dutch be a bit hard-headed ;) ???
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For sure they are hard-headed, as are their descendants. However, as to the phrase "not possible", I have received unbelievable support from the archives I have dealt with. In Zeeland's case, I do believe that losing large parts of your factual sources due to the senseless act of a mad man, is a valid excuse for something not possible.
 
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