HIGH HOPES, WILD MEN AND THE DEVIL’S JAW - Willem Barentsz Kolderstok 1:50

[Philski]

Hi Ron. Please see my reply to @Philski Phil.

Posted as an example of what I was wondering. It seems to me that ship builders wouldn't just overlap boards without some kind of consideration to the weather and the ability to shed water. Just wondering if models show and build this way for expedience. I got a new (actually pre-owned) book today and it mentions nothing. I'm just considering construction techniques and how they may have changed over the centuries....

 

[Heinrich]

@Philski It remains a very interesting question Phil. And the fact that I am not being able to give you a clear answer in that regard, means I still have homework to do. Maybe, I can call again on the heavyweights @Ab Hoving ; @Maarten; and @Kolderstok Hans to comment as to the exact purpose of the overlapping planks on the "schot" and ask them whether they were tapered/rabbeted or not.

 

[pingu57]

Heinrich my friend, What an outstanding history lesson that was. I must have been sleeping during our history lessons, because i did not know al this.
And about you frontwall with the two doors. all compliments have already been given, but i do want to say, what an excellent job jou and your Admiral did there..
In these two months you build a beautifull Willem Barentsz, and i can't wait to see the last part of your build, in your new shipyard.

 

[Heinrich]

Heinrich my friend, What an outstanding history lesson that was. I must have been sleeping during our history lessons, because i did not know al this.
And about you frontwall with the two doors. all compliments have already been given, but i do want to say, what an excellent job jou and your Admiral did there..
In these two months you build a beautifull Willem Barentsz, and i can't wait to see the last part of your build, in your new shipyard.

Wow my friend - you are going to make me blush! I am also very happy with the progress so far. As to the new shipyard, I just hope it doesn't take too long to open.

I had supper tonight with my new colleagues - they are from all over the world: Singapore, the Philippines Malaysia, South Korea , South Africa and England, and all seem very nice!

 

[pingu57]

There is no need to blush Heinrich, i simply love the way you are building.
That is quite an international school Heinrich if they come from all over the world. i am glad that they seem to be nice colleagues.
My Admiral is just asking me, to give her regards to you, and your Admiral, and she is wondering if you can find the time to watch the Olympics.

 

[Heinrich]

There is no need to blush Heinrich, i simply love the way you are building.
That is quite an international school Heinrich if they come from all over the world. i am glad that they seem to be nice colleagues.
My Admiral is just asking me, to give her regards to you, and your Admiral, and she is wondering if you can find the time to watch the Olympics.

Hi Peter. I am very happy that you like the Willem Barentsz build - I am extremely fond of this ship and is trying my utmost to do as well as I possibly can. Tell Marijke that Anna and I appreciate her regards very much and from us we also wish you both the best. Anna is following the Olympics, and I get the updates from her.

 

[Sailor_ed]

If the strakes were tapered and rabbeted it would provide a flat back surface for fastening to support structure, additionally it would provide a caulk-able seam where the rabbet is.

Good luck with the new job!

Fair Winds.. Ed

 

[Heinrich]

If the strakes were tapered and rabbeted it would provide a flat back surface for fastening to support structure, additionally it would provide a caulk-able seam where the rabbet is.

Good luck with the new job!

Fair Winds.. Ed

Thank you very much for the well-wishes Ed. I guess that for a more definitive answer as far as the overlapping planking goes, we will have to wait for the replica to reach this point in its construction!

 

[Heinrich]

@Philski @rtibbs @Sailor_ed

Hi Guys. I searched until I found.



This is the replica of the Batavia in Lelystadt. If we use the side gallery as an example, you can clearly see the overlapping planks on the outside.



The interior picture clearly shows straight planks (no rabbeting or tapering), but fitted into notches in the beams (white arrows) - just as Hans has designed it on the Willem Barentsz.

Once again, one can only be impressed with the accuracy of the kit!

 

[Maarten]

@Philski It remains a very interesting question Phil. And the fact that I am not being able to give you a clear answer in that regard, means I still have homework to do. Maybe, I can call again on the heavyweights @Ab Hoving ; @Maarten; and @Kolderstok Hans to comment as to the exact purpose of the overlapping planks on the "schot" and ask them whether they were tapered/rabbeted or not.

Hi Heinrich,

As far as I know this is done to create a ridged construction with lighter materials. The overlapping planks (gepotdekseld) create more strength in the construction as the planks are nailed to each other. The planks used can be lighter saving weight in the upper part of the ship.

 

[Heinrich]

Hi Heinrich,

As far as I know this is done to create a ridged construction with lighter materials. The overlapping planks (gepotdekseld) create more strength in the construction as the planks are nailed to each other. The planks used can be lighter saving weight in the upper part of the ship.

Thank you very much Maarten - that would make sense to keep the above-waterline weight as low as possible.

 

[Kolderstok]

@Philski It remains a very interesting question Phil. And the fact that I am not being able to give you a clear answer in that regard, means I still have homework to do. Maybe, I can call again on the heavyweights @Ab Hoving ; @Maarten; and @Kolderstok Hans to comment as to the exact purpose of the overlapping planks on the "schot" and ask them whether they were tapered/rabbeted or not.

First of all - I wasn't there 400 years ago, so all I am writing now is just straightforward thinking and guessing.

Just a few years before Willem Barentsz set sail to the unknown, the sawing mill powered by the wind was invented and patented. It could be very well possible that the ship of Willem Barentsz was completely constructed with hand sawed planks. And sawing a plank by hand was quite a job, which costed huge amounts of time.
To saw a rabbeted plank by hand was very difficult (even impossible) due to the different angles of sawing, and chisseling a slot in it would be another time consuming labour. And also in those days, time was money, so a plank was sawn in the most efficient way, with no extra labour. So no rabbeting, and no slot.

And even when the planks of Barentsz his ship were sawn with the windmill powered saw it was technically not possible to make a rabbeted plank, as the saws where parrallel to each other. The angle in the plank could simply not being achieved without great difficulties - and thus too expencive. So to my opinion also a no here.

Nowadays we have electricity, and milling machines, so we can make almost every shape and size we want. But at that time this just wasn't there.

Once again - it is just my straightforward thinking of how I would tackle a problem 400 years ago with the tools and possibilities I had.
The shipyards master would say: Too much difficulties? We will not do it, and just go on with our work. The ship must be finished within a short time.

Hans

 

[Heinrich]

First of all - I wasn't there 400 years ago, so all I am writing now is just straightforward thinking and guessing.

Just a few years before Willem Barentsz set sail to the unknown, the sawing mill powered by the wind was invented and patented. It could be very well possible that the ship of Willem Barentsz was completely constructed with hand sawed planks. And sawing a plank by hand was quite a job, which costed huge amounts of time.
To saw a rabbeted plank by hand was very difficult (even impossible) due to the different angles of sawing, and chisseling a slot in it would be another time consuming labour. And also in those days, time was money, so a plank was sawn in the most efficient way, with no extra labour. So no rabbeting, and no slot.

And even when the planks of Barentsz his ship were sawn with the windmill powered saw it was technically not possible to make a rabbeted plank, as the saws where parrallel to each other. The angle in the plank could simply not being achieved without great difficulties - and thus too expencive. So to my opinion also a no here.

Nowadays we have electricity, and milling machines, so we can make almost every shape and size we want. But at that time this just wasn't there.

Once again - it is just my straightforward thinking of how I would tackle a problem 400 years ago with the tools and possibilities I had.
The shipyards master would say: Too much difficulties? We will not do it, and just go on with our work. The ship must be finished within a short time.

Hans

Thank you very much Hans. That was exactly the logical and conclusive type of answer I was hoping for.

The wind-powered sawmill that Hans is referring to was designed by Cornelis Corneliszoon from Uitgeest. (See below).



This sawmill was patented on December 15, 1593- three years before the start of Barentsz's third expedition. Seeing that the two ships were not purposely built for the expedition, it could be assumed that the wood for the Willerm Barentsz still had to be sawn by hand following the method below.



The wind-powered sawmill below:



The sawmill was called the "Juffertje" (young girl) because of its very particular shape. Also note the parallel saw blades.

As Hans has mentioned, both of the two above methods would almost certainly have meant no rabbeted or tapered planks.

 

[Philski]

@Philski @rtibbs @Sailor_ed

Hi Guys. I searched until I found.

View attachment 289709

This is the replica of the Batavia in Lelystadt. If we use the side gallery as an example, you can clearly see the overlapping planks on the outside.

View attachment 289710

The interior picture clearly shows straight planks (no rabbeting or tapering), but fitted into notches in the beams (white arrows) - just as Hans has designed it on the Willem Barentsz.

Once again, one can only be impressed with the accuracy of the kit!

That is very interesting! It would certainly help it shed water. Good find Heinrich!

 

[Philski]

First of all - I wasn't there 400 years ago, so all I am writing now is just straightforward thinking and guessing.

Just a few years before Willem Barentsz set sail to the unknown, the sawing mill powered by the wind was invented and patented. It could be very well possible that the ship of Willem Barentsz was completely constructed with hand sawed planks. And sawing a plank by hand was quite a job, which costed huge amounts of time.
To saw a rabbeted plank by hand was very difficult (even impossible) due to the different angles of sawing, and chisseling a slot in it would be another time consuming labour. And also in those days, time was money, so a plank was sawn in the most efficient way, with no extra labour. So no rabbeting, and no slot.

And even when the planks of Barentsz his ship were sawn with the windmill powered saw it was technically not possible to make a rabbeted plank, as the saws where parrallel to each other. The angle in the plank could simply not being achieved without great difficulties - and thus too expencive. So to my opinion also a no here.

Nowadays we have electricity, and milling machines, so we can make almost every shape and size we want. But at that time this just wasn't there.

Once again - it is just my straightforward thinking of how I would tackle a problem 400 years ago with the tools and possibilities I had.
The shipyards master would say: Too much difficulties? We will not do it, and just go on with our work. The ship must be finished within a short time.

Hans

I agree to some extent. Time to build and mill ship lumber must have been slow and consuming. That's not to saythey didn't have the capabilities to rabbet (rebate) wood when needed. Interesting topic!

 

[Heinrich]

That is very interesting! It would certainly help it shed water. Good find Heinrich!

Hi Phil. It was interesting to look deeper into this and I am glad that I could find some clarification.

I am sure that the Dutch had the capability of doing rebates, it's just that to do it on the scale that would have been required for a ship (which also a dispensable item after 15 or 20 years) , did not seem feasible.

 

[Philski]

Hi Phil. It was interesting to look deeper into this and I am glad that I could find some clarification.

I am sure that the Dutch had the capability of doing rebates, it's just that to do it on the scale that would have been required for a ship (which also a dispensable item after 15 or 20 years) , did not seem feasible.

Probably more related to woodworking and cabinet making. And the older ships' weren't as refined as newer ones. It just had me thinking of just how sophisticated their designs were and maybe how watertight their ships were. (Did they have to evacuate their bilges by buckets vs a pump?)

 

[dockattner]

Probably more related to woodworking and cabinet making. And the older ships' weren't as refined as newer ones. It just had me thinking of just how sophisticated their designs were and maybe how watertight their ships were. (Did they have to evacuate their bilges by buckets vs a pump?)

There's a pump on my 1628 Vasa so...

 

[Heinrich]

@Philski Oh heck yes - for sure they made use of bilge pumps
@dockattner Correct Paul!



The pumps on the replica of the Batavia.

 

[Sailor_ed]

@Philski @rtibbs @Sailor_ed

Hi Guys. I searched until I found.

View attachment 289709

This is the replica of the Batavia in Lelystadt. If we use the side gallery as an example, you can clearly see the overlapping planks on the outside.

View attachment 289710

The interior picture clearly shows straight planks (no rabbeting or tapering), but fitted into notches in the beams (white arrows) - just as Hans has designed it on the Willem Barentsz.

Once again, one can only be impressed with the accuracy of the kit!

Great research!
I will add, though that putting a rabbet in a plank with a rabbeting plane is not a big deal for one experienced with hand tools. It's something my grandfather did in spite of the invention of the router. Never underestimate the capabilities of previous eras.