HIGH HOPES, WILD MEN AND THE DEVIL’S JAW - Willem Barentsz Kolderstok 1:50

I'v never heard of a 'boot' that was stored on deck. There was simply not enough room for that, as Heinrich learned himself. As long as the boat was behind the ship (where it was when it was towed) I don't think ice was a major problem. Even the hunting sloops of the whalers were used in polar waters, so what is the problem with a sturdy work-boat?
 
Heinrich said:
good question Peter
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Heinrich, i think there is for both options something that could be true, but i think that we all ( except Ab Hoving ) forget that this ship is a scale ship, and that the windlass on the real ship perhaps took less space as on your little ship, and it is of course also possible that the front canopy has been built a little bit more to the back of the vessel on the real ship
 
pingu57 said:
Heinrich, i think there is for both options something that could be true, but i think that we all ( except Ab Hoving ) forget that this ship is a scale ship, and that the windlass on the real ship perhaps took less space as on your little ship, and it is of course also possible that the front canopy has been built a little bit more to the back of the vessel on the real ship
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Very good point, Peter.
If, for instance, a belaying rail has a thickness of 2mm/0.0079" in your model, then that would translate to 100mm/4" in real life, when using a 1:50 scale ratio.
And, when scaling down, it's unrealistic to assume the scale ratio can be applied to all aspects of a model. That could be either manufacturing- or cost issues for the kit manufacturer, or both...
Besides, if one can't live with the manufacturer's choices, there's always kit bashing!
 
Ab Hoving said:
I'v never heard of a 'boot' that was stored on deck. There was simply not enough room for that, as Heinrich learned himself. As long as the boat was behind the ship (where it was when it was towed) I don't think ice was a major problem. Even the hunting sloops of the whalers were used in polar waters, so what is the problem with a sturdy work-boat?
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From the ignorant; even in high seas sloops/boats were towed? Were there measures in place to avoid taking on too much water? With respect to the hunter sloops, the Newfoundland schooners had their fishing dories stored on deck and were deployed once the fishing waters were reached, although I am not going to state this as absolute truth...
 
pingu57 said:
Heinrich, i think there is for both options something that could be true, but i think that we all ( except Ab Hoving ) forget that this ship is a scale ship, and that the windlass on the real ship perhaps took less space as on your little ship, and it is of course also possible that the front canopy has been built a little bit more to the back of the vessel on the real ship
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Peter my friend it is so difficult. In Ab's book he gives the dimensions of the "schuijt / schuyt" as 21.5 feet and that of the "bok" as 16.5 feet. On two occasions De Veer writes:

10 juni: “ Den 10. Juny setten wy onsen schuijt uyt ende voeren met ons acht persoonen naer landt…”

20 juli: “Wy setten onse schuijt uyt ende royden met ons achten aen t’land”

Translated it means that they set they "put the schuijt out" meaning from the ship into the water.

This would clearly show that the "schuijt / schuyt" was indeed stored onboard - BUT now comes the question. How specific was De Veer in the wording that he used?
 
RDN1954 said:
Very good point, Peter.
If, for instance, a belaying rail has a thickness of 2mm/0.0079" in your model, then that would translate to 100mm/4" in real life, when using a 1:50 scale ratio.
And, when scaling down, it's unrealistic to assume the scale ratio can be applied to all aspects of a model. That could be either manufacturing- or cost issues for the kit manufacturer, or both...
Besides, if one can't live with the manufacturer's choices, there's always kit bashing!
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Once again an excellent posting Johan!
 
Heinrich said:
Peter my friend it is so difficult. In Ab's book he gives the dimensions of the "schuijt / schuyt" as 21.5 feet and that of the "bok" as 16.5 feet. On two occasions De Veer writes:

10 juni: “ Den 10. Juny setten wy onsen schuijt uyt ende voeren met ons acht persoonen naer landt…”

20 juli: “Wy setten onse schuijt uyt ende royden met ons achten aen t’land”

Translated it means that they set they "put the schuijt out" meaning from the ship into the water.

This would clearly show that the "schuijt / schuyt" was indeed stored onboard - BUT now comes the question. How specific was De Veer in the wording that he used?
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"Schuijt", "schuyt" or "schuit" were commonly used for "boot" or "chaloeps" on seagoing ships.
So, using @Ab Hoving 's reasoning, what de Veer refers to has to be a "chaloep"... Probably? Redface
 
RDN1954 said:
"Schuijt", "schuyt" or "schuit" were commonly used for "boot" or "chaloeps" on seagoing ships.
So, using @Ab Hoving 's reasoning, what de Veer refers to has to be a "chaloep"... Probably? Redface
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I agree Johan. It is likely that schuit refers to sloop or chaloup - but in Ab's book the schuit was bigger than the bok.
 
Kolderstok said:
About the boat (bok - schuit or chaloup) I found this image:
View attachment 300716
The text above the picture (Sit oneri erit usui) means in Dutch het moge tot last zijn, het zal van nut zijn.
translated: It may be a burden, but it will be of use.

In the book Sinnepoppen (1614) there is a small piece of original text:
ALS een Schip in de Zee gaet, soo setmen het Boot in het groote Schip, het welck aldaer een groote ruymte neemt, ende de Bootsghesellen seer in de weech is; dan moet nochtans mee varen, niet teghenstaende alle ongherijf ende onghemack datmer af lijdt om datmen daer mede noodigh moet aen het landt gaen

Translated:
If a ship goes onto the sea, the boat is put into the big ship, which takes a big space there, and it stands in the way for the boatmen; then they should still go along, not withstanding all the inconvenience and discomfort that they suffer because they have to go to land with it.

So despite all the space it took, it was very important to have one or more boats on a ship - it could be the difference between life and dead.

Hans
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What a fascinating discussion Heinrich! When considering this picture from Hans post #1889, it would appear the rather large life boat is suspended midship just below the railing. Weather it's being put in or being taken out who knows. My question is could it be stored in this suspended position during normal seas thus giving more work room on deck? I do not know if this is practical but at the very least it seems it could fall in line with the other unknowns.
 
Bugger, I'm starting to develop a splitting headache... ;)
Couldn't we agree upon using "boot" for the one being towed and "chaloep" for the one stored on deck, or boat and sloop respectively?
I performed a quick survey on some Dutch nautical websites and with every two articles my confusion quadrupled; schuijt, sloep, chaloep, chaloupe, bok, vlet, poon, praam... Some are interchangeable, others not so much. For those interested, here a link to a Dutch website: https://www.debinnenvaart.nl/binnenvaarttaal/index.php, unfortunately in Dutch only.
Maybe it's time for a college from our resident educator?
 
Daniel20 said:
What a fascinating discussion Heinrich! When considering this picture from Hans post #1889, it would appear the rather large life boat is suspended midship just below the railing. Weather it's being put in or being taken out who knows. My question is could it be stored in this suspended position during normal seas thus giving more work room on deck? I do not know if this is practical but at the very least it seems it could fall in line with the other unknowns.
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For sure it is a possibility Daniel and thus it adds to the many permutations that are being thrown around here. You are right - this is a wonderful discussion and it is also amazing to think that linguistics can actually play a role in historical ship research and can have a profound result on the final outcome. Mind-boggling!
 
RDN1954 said:
Bugger, I'm starting to develop a splitting headache... ;)
Couldn't we agree upon using "boot" for the one being towed and "chaloep" for the one stored on deck, or boat and sloop respectively?
I performed a quick survey on some Dutch nautical websites and with every two articles my confusion quadrupled; schuijt, sloep, chaloep, chaloupe, bok, vlet, poon, praam... Some are interchangeable, others not so much. For those interested, here a link to a Dutch website: https://www.debinnenvaart.nl/binnenvaarttaal/index.php, unfortunately in Dutch only.
Maybe it's time for a college from our resident educator?
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Johan I agree to agree. ROTF Half the issue here is the terminology.
 
Heinrich, this being your build log it’s entirely up to you as to how to proceed with your build. That being said I believe everyone is getting caught up in the minutiae regarding the windlass and forgetting the much larger picture, that being the beautiful re-creation of of a model ship from history.

Ron
 
rtibbs said:
Heinrich, this being your build log it’s entirely up to you as to how to proceed with your build. That being said I believe everyone is getting caught up in the minutiae regarding the windlass and forgetting the much larger picture, that being the beautiful re-creation of of a model ship from history.

Ron
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Hi Ron. It is a very valid point that you are making. The only thing is that the position of the windlass differs so greatly between the different interpretations, that I find it fascinating to discover the rationale between the schools of thought.

The book of Hoving is a great help in this and a fascinating read. Did you know that after about a month at sea the ship had to take on ballast to compensate for the loss of weight because of the food and water that was consumed?? :eek:
 
The only thing is that the position of the windlass differs so greatly between the different interpretations
My point exactly.
I guess my feelings regarding such matters have been swayed lately as I realize there is much more to life. Or in my case impending death.
So I'll bow out gracefully.
 
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