HMS PANDORA 1:72 - Modelship Dockyard

[Heinrich]

Contact Wuxi, he will try to help you overcome those problems. Also, why use CA glue for wood? I think wood glue should be the best for wood.

Hi Jimsky. I will certainly speak to Wuxi (his customer service is great!). As to why I use CA for wood - there is no other way to glue the wooden parts to the resin components.

 

[zoly99sask]

We completely forgot that the kit has lot of resin parts,so you must use CA

 

[sevish]

Hi Zoly. I can remove the planks with Acetone, but CA (in whatever form - epoxy, paste, gel, etc.) has to be used on those segments of the planking that have to be glued to the resin parts. There is no other way around that. Please see below.

View attachment 437516
All the blue sections indicate resin parts. you can see that there is a substantial amount of wooden planking that needs to be glued to the resin parts. PVA is not going to do that. And this just shows the inner planking, then there is still the outer hull planking over all the resin parts.

For the CA glue you should use one that have thick solution and a nozzle . the glue won't start to spread everywhere and it's more controllable .
The thinned ones are very thinned and can do a big mess with few drops.
Also try to find catalyst spray it will also be very helpful .

 

[GrantTyler]

Dear Friends

Not yet done for the weekend. there was still one item left on the day's agenda - the deck.

The challenge here is that it is a pre-lasered, pre-cut part (which looks stunning in Pear wood, I might add) and which has to be mounted in one go (remember the CA glue) with perfect accuracy. Bear in mind that there also the nibbed waterways that come into the equation. This raises a nice little question. Do you first install the two deck halves and then the waterways, bearing in mind that you have 4 scarph joints and large number of nibbed ends to contend with, or do you first attach the waterways to the deck halves? I chose the latter.

View attachment 437112
Here the first four sections of the Port Side waterway are being joined whilst the rearmost section (closest to the stern) has already been affixed to the hull.

View attachment 437113
This gives you some idea of high far the waterway extends above the deck line. The fitment of the five pieces that make up the waterway was perfect with all scarph joints and nibbed ends sliding perfectly into position. With that, I could drop the Port side half of the deck into place and fix it permanently as the fit was perfect.

I repeated the process for the Starboard side half of the deck, but when it came to fitting that piece, it was a different story altogether. All I can say is that it required a LOT of fiddling, sanding, measuring, trimming and sanding again to fit into position. And when I glued it into place (keeping in mind that I did not only have the waterway fitment to contend with but also where it joined the Port side half of the deck, I ran out of hands and fingers. The result was that where it butted up against the captain's cabin, the glue bit before I could fully press it into position. And no matter how hard I tried to loosen the glue (with acetone) the grip in other parts was so prodigious, that no adjustment was possible. The end result is that I now have a right hand-side deck half which sits approximately 1mm higher than the Port Side deck as it butts up against the rearmost bench. Even though it is barely visible, the problem is that the inner planking is done on top of the waterways and the first two rows of inner planking has to be level with the underside of the gunports. As it stands now, the Starboard side planking will protrude above that mark, so I will have to make adjustments when I get to that part of the inner planking.

In any case, this is what the ship looks like with the deck installed.

View attachment 437118
View attachment 437119
View attachment 437120
View attachment 437124
View attachment 437125
Inspector Didi checking things out.

And with that my friends, my weekend has come and gone in the shipyard. Until next time, take care, build what you love; love what you build, give your loved ones a hug and a kiss and have a stunning week!

Good morning Heinrich. Looks perfect to me. I agree that using a good looking wood - like pear make so much visual difference to a ship. Cheers Grant

 

[Heinrich]

In the few years I have been on this site you have always supported and encouraged modellers not only as they show their successes but also their perceived failures. You have helped so many stay on track, revisit the part or parts of their distress and advised them on how to overcome many problems and errors.

I imagine there are countless builders who do not show nor admit to their errors and dare any builder to say he/she has built a model where every single part fitted successfully first time. I therefore think it admirable that you can be open enough to admit that a difficult part of your own build can be just as frustrating to a proficient and experienced modeller such as yourself. So my friend stand back, mentally revisit and admire what you have so far achieved, then take stock of how you can fix the recent problem without taking any drastic action. After all how would you advise a modeller in a similar situation? I know for sure it would not be the trash can.

Roger, thank you very much for these well-considered and very wise thoughts. I think my big concern here is that I can remove all affected parts and start all over (I have no problem with that), but then I have to follow the exact same procedure again, using the exact same materials - and yet, expect a different outcome - some people have called this the very definition of insanity. All things considered the kit comprises of a multitude of resin parts which necessitate the use of CA glue - and therein lies the problem.

 

[GrantTyler]

Good morning Heinrich. It is never a good feeling those blunder days. Can really get us miserable. I know we all share your pain.

Re CA glue. I use it a lot with my ships. In fact most of my Xebec is made with Ca. The trick for me is to know when to use the gel, and when to use the runny stuff. Also less is more. For your planks etc onto the resin I would use the gel (Gorilla blue bottle) as it dries slowly(a minute or so). I always put the glue onto the part being glued. A few tiny dots of gel onto the plank (as this takes longer to dry give one time to check the alignment etc) and just before I place the plank onto the bulkhead I smooth the dots over the plank glueing area with a toothpick making sure there is not too much to ooze out when I press it too the bulkhead or bulwark. The most important thing is to make sure the plank is perfectly in line before you press it to the gluing area as you can’t move it or it makes stains. Gel glue does allow a small period of adjustment time- 30secs. I do it this way as I can judge the amount of glue for each plank better than if I apply it to the bulkhead/bulwark. Of course make sure no CA on hands. The runny stuff I keep for repairs and rigging.

I’m not sure this helps but works well for me. My entire small boat was built with CA only using the above. I know many of the guys will give me a hiding for this but I wanted to see if I could.

N Boer maak n plan….you will sort your Pandora out.

Cheers Grant

 

[Heinrich]

For the CA glue you should use one that have thick solution and a nozzle . the glue won't start to spread everywhere and it's more controllable .
The thinned ones are very thinned and can do a big mess with few drops.
Also try to find catalyst spray it will also be very helpful .

Guy, I will try and find something thicker and with a slower curing time to try. The thin variety is clearly not working for me. Can you tell me more about the catalyst spray, please?

 

[Walterone]

I completely agree with the colleagues about the glue. I would look for a universal one that glues both wood and resin well (it may require some experimentation). Such adhesives exist, and in the form of a gel, but I cannot give exact recommendations, because I don’t know what you have on sale. And another important note: maybe it would be better first to treat your wooden planks from inside with the glue as a primer and let them dry.

 

[sevish]

Sure, the catalyst is actually an accelerator once you put the parts together with the ca glue you spary the caccelerator on the parts and the glue dries almost instantly .
It also helps to prevent the white residue from the glue fumes.
I'm using this brand it very good ca glue
the MP-2 is the thick one


you can find it on Amazon .

And any ac accelerator will do, you can probably find it on any good hardware store .
For nozzles AliExpress you can buy hundreds in very low cost.

 

[Jimsky]

Technically speaking, a drop of water should work as the accelerator for most CA glue, I use a water dump paper towel and instantly wipe the excess (if any), this cleans and accelerates at the same time.

 

[Heinrich]

Good morning Heinrich. It is never a good feeling those blunder days. Can really get us miserable. I know we all share your pain.

Re CA glue. I use it a lot with my ships. In fact most of my Xebec is made with Ca. The trick for me is to know when to use the gel, and when to use the runny stuff. Also less is more. For your planks etc onto the resin I would use the gel (Gorilla blue bottle) as it dries slowly(a minute or so). I always put the glue onto the part being glued. A few tiny dots of gel onto the plank (as this takes longer to dry give one time to check the alignment etc) and just before I place the plank onto the bulkhead I smooth the dots over the plank glueing area with a toothpick making sure there is not too much to ooze out when I press it too the bulkhead or bulwark. The most important thing is to make sure the plank is perfectly in line before you press it to the gluing area as you can’t move it or it makes stains. Gel glue does allow a small period of adjustment time- 30secs. I do it this way as I can judge the amount of glue for each plank better than if I apply it to the bulkhead/bulwark. Of course make sure no CA on hands. The runny stuff I keep for repairs and rigging.

I’m not sure this helps but works well for me. My entire small boat was built with CA only using the above. I know many of the guys will give me a hiding for this but I wanted to see if I could.

N Boer maak n plan….you will sort your Pandora out.

Cheers Grant

Thank you so much for your advice, my friend. The thicker, gel-type stuff is clearly the better way to go. The part of "aligning it perfectly" is where the challenge lies. With PVA I constantly make adjustments - even as the glue is in the process of drying - by relieving pressure or applying more via an arrangement of my clamps. That is why I enjoy planking with PVA so much, it keeps you actively involved. I take my hat off to you for building a chaloup entirely with CA - that is something I won't attempt - not even in my wildest dreams.

 

[Heinrich]

I completely agree with the colleagues about the glue. I would look for a universal one that glues both wood and resin well (it may require some experimentation). Such adhesives exist, and in the form of a gel, but I cannot give exact recommendations, because I don’t know what you have on sale. And another important note: maybe it would be better first to treat your wooden planks from inside with the glue as a primer and let them dry.

Vladimir. Do you mind showing what you would regard as a universal glue that is used in Russia. I can always try to see if I can find it on Taobao. When you say use the glue as primer on the wood, are you referring to CA glue? If so, is it simply brushed on? I think it is the boat of Galilee (by luthier Scott Millar) where the build instructions also recommend this.

 

[rtibbs]

Heinrich,
In my 50+ years of building RC aircraft I became well versed in the use of Cyanoacrylate glues. I always had three different types on the workbench: Thin, Medium and Thick as well as a 'kicker' to allow for faster set times if needed. While the thin viscosity is the most prevalent in use it also has some undesirable features namely it will wick along the wood grain as well as through it. I've lost lots of skin from my fingers while holding pieces in place only to find the CA wicked through the wood which was mostly balsa however, the same applies to most woods just at different rates of absorption.
Using the thicker viscosity CA does allow for some repositioning as it doesn't 'kick off' quite as fast. It also does not 'wick' like the thinner varieties.
If you want the thicker to 'kick off' sooner you can apply the 'kicker' catalyst before hand or as you place the pieces together while gluing. The catalyst can be sprayed on, or to eliminate the overspray, dip a toothpick in the catalyst and apply it to the joint,
I highly recommend experimenting on pieces of scrap wood to refine your technique.

Anyway just my two centavo's for what its worth.

 

[Heinrich]

Technically speaking, a drop of water should work as the accelerator for most CA glue, I use a water dump paper towel and instantly wipe the excess (if any), this cleans and accelerates at the same time.

You are right, Jimsky - water is an accelerator. This is what I did on the Leudo, but at least with that build I was still working with wood on wood.

 

[Heinrich]

Heinrich,
In my 50+ years of building RC aircraft I became well versed in the use of Cyanoacrylate glues. I always had three different types on the workbench: Thin, Medium and Thick as well as a 'kicker' to allow for faster set times if needed. While the thin viscosity is the most prevalent in use it also has some undesirable features namely it will wick along the wood grain as well as through it. I've lost lots of skin from my fingers while holding pieces in place only to find the CA wicked through the wood which was mostly balsa however, the same applies to most woods just at different rates of absorption.
Using the thicker viscosity CA does allow for some repositioning as it doesn't 'kick off' quite as fast. It also does not 'wick' like the thinner varieties.
If you want the thicker to 'kick off' sooner you can apply the 'kicker' catalyst before hand or as you place the pieces together while gluing. The catalyst can be sprayed on, or to eliminate the overspray, dip a toothpick in the catalyst and apply it to the joint,
I highly recommend experimenting on pieces of scrap wood to refine your technique.

Anyway just my two centavo's for what its worth.

Your two centavos are worth a lot, Ron! The CA wicking through the wood is exactly what seems to have happened in one or two places - obviously indicating that I also applied too much glue. At this point, the thicker variety seems more desirable and actually without the "Kicker" as I do want a longer curing time. I don't mind applying clamps at all. I do like the fact that the catalyst cleans up the joint.

Yep, it seems like I need plenty of time practicing my technique.

 

[Walterone]

Do you mind showing what you would regard as a universal glue that is used in Russia.

For example, something like Moment Crystal (it's an international trademark, I believe). It's a transparent multi-purpose glue in a form of a thick gel. If I build this kit, I'll definitely try something like this.

When you say use the glue as primer on the wood, are you referring to CA glue?

No, no. I mean the universal glue.

 

[Heinrich]

For example, something like Moment Crystal (it's an international trademark, I believe). It's a transparent multi-purpose glue in a form of a thick gel. If I build this kit, I'll definitely try something like this.


No, no. I mean the universal glue.

Thank you my friend!

 

[dockattner]

Hello Heinrich,

It seems you are getting lots of good advice from our friends. I am severely allergic to over-the-counter CA so I need to use a special version that comes in a medium thickness. I use it as a clamp - often in combination with wood glue. The one point I wanted to emphasize is that less is more when it comes to CA. It seems counterintuitive, but the more CA you use the weaker the joint seems to be. If CA is used very sparingly I think you will have great success with it for this application. My two cents...

 

[Peter Voogt]

Phoe, 6 days offline and a lot of pages to read, Heinrich. First the nice progress and then your struggle. I hope that got the right information and help to solve the problems.
Regards, Peter

 

[Heinrich]

Hello Heinrich,

It seems you are getting lots of good advice from our friends. I am severely allergic to over-the-counter CA so I need to use a special version that comes in a medium thickness. I use it as a clamp - often in combination with wood glue. The one point I wanted to emphasize is that less is more when it comes to CA. It seems counterintuitive, but the more CA you use the weaker the joint seems to be. If CA is used very sparingly I think you will have great success with it for this application. My two cents...

Dear Paul - I think the less is more adage when it comes to CA glue is the one that I have overlooked. This I will certainly apply in my next round of CA gluing!