Impressive.
HMS Sovereign of the Seas - Bashing DeAgostini Beyond Believable Boundaries
- Thread starter DARIVS ARCHITECTVS
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This is really a treat, Kurt!
Many hours later, the messenger line was made with served eyes and the proper features including the lashing between the two line segments, mouses tied every two fathoms and the best interpretation for nippers I can find at present. The messenger was nipped to the port anchor cable, and the anchor cable was made taught, simulating the weight of the anchor, buy using a brass pin and glue at the hawse pipe end, and glue at the place where it passed into the orlop deck below. I assume that the nippers ride up against the mouses on the messenger.
The messenger is made of two sections of line lashed together at the eyes.
Mouses are made on the messenger line every two fathoms.
Vertical rollers in the Manger will be added later for the messenger to pass aorund, after some of the kit frame sections are removed with the oscillating too using its proven powers of destruction. The ends of the messenger will be joined once the fore capstan is made later in the build. The port side anchor will be displayed hanging from the cathead, and I'm thinking of deploying the fishing davit to the port side with a tackle from it lifting the fluke of the anchor up a bit, and if the anchor was in the process of being stored on the channel. This deck is getting crowded up forward.
The messenger is made of two sections of line lashed together at the eyes.
Mouses are made on the messenger line every two fathoms.
Vertical rollers in the Manger will be added later for the messenger to pass aorund, after some of the kit frame sections are removed with the oscillating too using its proven powers of destruction. The ends of the messenger will be joined once the fore capstan is made later in the build. The port side anchor will be displayed hanging from the cathead, and I'm thinking of deploying the fishing davit to the port side with a tackle from it lifting the fluke of the anchor up a bit, and if the anchor was in the process of being stored on the channel. This deck is getting crowded up forward.
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The little nippers will come in handy. You’ve thought it out pretty thoroughly.
The iron rollers for the messenger line needed to be added, but first all the support frame wood needed to be cleared out of the manger, so Operating Demolition was continued, removing much of the bow frames and opening up the manger area. The cuts were simple and crude, and the rough wood was simply painted over, but it provided the space for the iron rollers to be installed and made the shape of that area of the ship a bit more accurate. This are will not be easily viewed, but it seemed incomplete without the rollers.
Plunge cuts were carefully made and wood broken out using the pliers on a Leatherman tool.
All plunge cuts completed.
Chunks of wood broken out and removed.
Interior simply painted brown.
Some dowel was shaped by using a diamond file by hand while spinning the wood in a battery powered hand drill. Brass pins added for strength to the joints.
Painting rollers.
Rollers installed.
Plunge cuts were carefully made and wood broken out using the pliers on a Leatherman tool.
All plunge cuts completed.
Chunks of wood broken out and removed.
Interior simply painted brown.
Some dowel was shaped by using a diamond file by hand while spinning the wood in a battery powered hand drill. Brass pins added for strength to the joints.
Painting rollers.
Rollers installed.
If there was an award for cutting up a ship while simultaneously building a ship... 
Great work Kurt
Catching up with your log brings back so many memories.I thought I was the only one mad enough to build a hull then hollow out the insides like a canoe
As they say though, you cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs
As a side note and a complete curved ball, the more I look at the model shown in Deagostini's marketing, the more I feel it has more than a passing resemblance to Amati's plans
Happy New Year
Nigel
Catching up with your log brings back so many memories.I thought I was the only one mad enough to build a hull then hollow out the insides like a canoe
As they say though, you cannot make an omelette without breaking eggs
As a side note and a complete curved ball, the more I look at the model shown in Deagostini's marketing, the more I feel it has more than a passing resemblance to Amati's plans
Happy New Year
Nigel
While Kurt definitely deserves an award (agree), it is just impractical. Ship modeling is like a chess game: you have to foresee a few moves ahead to avoid 'cutting up' while building...If there was an award for cutting up a ship while simultaneously building a ship...
The whole bashing process has been long journey of "build as you go" steps. It's really hard to anticipate where you will later cut pieces out on a kit's frame structure until you get to a certain stage in building. This is especially true because the model is only my second one. Since research is ongoing as well and construction (and occasional de-construction), there will be features I learn about later than cannot be placed in the ship because the area was built over or no longer accessible. You make changes as you go, and sometimes decide to rework an area that you previously were going to ignore entirely. I have not planned on putting this much detail into the internals, but things got carried away, and there will be almost as much internal features to look at as external ones. Scratch building the tiny details and adding them to the ship each time I read another few pages of John McKay or Peter Goodwin has gotten to be quite fun. I use McCay's work only for suggestions since he made so many guesses as to how the internal structure is supposed to appear which were off the mark, but it's a good place to start for ideas when you have nothing else to go on. Peter Goodwin's book concentrates on 18th century vessels, and it is often difficult to determine if a certain feature is supposed to exist on a 17th century man of war. This books is one you rely on for accuracy. So much changes in 200 years, and lots of guesses have to be made.While Kurt definitely deserves an award (agree), it is just impractical. Ship modeling is like a chess game: you have to foresee a few moves ahead to avoid 'cutting up' while building...
Sometimes you have an epiphany. For example, it occurred to me that making hanging knees from scratch but routering out a long board to the profile shape and cutting sections off like cutting sausage slices could be simplified in one single step. Why didn't I think of this earlier?
It has occurred to me that the knees I was making by hand were almost exactly the same shape corner molding. So, I went to a local home improvement store and bought some poplar corner molding and used the band saw to cut the rough parts which will become hanging, lodging knees, and inverted knees or standards that support the beams of the lower gun deck below. A big pile of these rough parts were cut and sanded to remove the charring of the wood which is being caused by the dulling of the saw blade. (I'm getting the most out of that blade before I replace it).
Here are the knees after sanding. Each will a have to be cut and hand sanded to be shaped to fit independently before being installed because of the changing curves of the hull from bow to stern, an this includes rounding off the corners at the end of the intrados of the curve of each knee. Also, bolt heads will have to be marked on the inside edges for extra detail (when does it stop?!).
By the way, Jimsky, I suck at chess....
Several sets of hanging knees were installed today, completing the beams for the lower gun deck for the bow section. Each knee was custom fit, which took less time than I though it would. I'm waiting on more Caldercraft 28mm columns from Cornwall Model Boats and some other materials. Carlings and ledges are next. Here are pictures of the work so far.
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Added more beams today in scattered places, wherever the cut and sanded lengths of curved walnut fit best in selected positions directly underneath middle gun deck ports or over the edges of hatch coamings on the lower gun deck. In positions where a beam is close to both the place under a gun port and a place over the coaming of a hatch underneath, the hatch takes precedence. This is because no beams should interfere with movement of cargo vertically through hatches when the grates are removed.
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More beams were added to the lower gun deck, and the two ladders leading down to the orlop deck were made after two rectangular holes were cut into the deck.
Amati 12mm ladder, #4320/12 were assembled and shaped into a shallow "S" shaped ladder.
The aft ladder, which descends forward to the orlop deck was installed using PVA glue. The bottom rests in a notch cut into the center frame of the hull.
The forward ladder, which descend to in the aft direction, was also installed.
Progress so far.
Amati 12mm ladder, #4320/12 were assembled and shaped into a shallow "S" shaped ladder.
The aft ladder, which descends forward to the orlop deck was installed using PVA glue. The bottom rests in a notch cut into the center frame of the hull.
The forward ladder, which descend to in the aft direction, was also installed.
Progress so far.
Kurt,
I have to say that what you are doing with this build is amazing. You have managed to wrestle a POB kit and turn it into a veritable scratch build that has details for days and seeks after some level of historical accuracy. And while the scale is larger than La Couronne it is by no means a large-scale model. Stunning my friend!
I have to say that what you are doing with this build is amazing. You have managed to wrestle a POB kit and turn it into a veritable scratch build that has details for days and seeks after some level of historical accuracy. And while the scale is larger than La Couronne it is by no means a large-scale model. Stunning my friend!
Thanks Paul! It will be great if I can keep the momentum up and make all the decks look like this one. Th research into the basic ship internal structure is new and fun. I almost forgot the chain pumps, but browsing through Brian Lavery's The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War 1600-1815 reminded me of that and some details I better add before closing over the deck with plywood. Even with all these details, there are loads of things missing with regard to wooden members that will remain missing, but this model will show the basic features. You'll have Wasa done long before the Sovereign is finished. I'm wondering at that point what your next project will be. I have three other ships standing by for building. I'd like to do USS Rattlesnake next. That ship was seriously considered to be my first model before I fell in love with the idea of doing a Renaissance man of war like La Couronne.
The beams, lodging knees, and hanging knees were completed for the lower gun deck today. I'm still waiting on parts to install the columns.
It got pretty tight working under the poop deck.
Note how the orientation of the lodging knees reverses at midships.
The main capstan can be seen here. The fore capstan is not yet ready for installation, since the shaft conceals wiring for lighting.
Overall view. Things are really going to get interesting access-wise when the carlings and ledges are made.
It got pretty tight working under the poop deck.
Note how the orientation of the lodging knees reverses at midships.
The main capstan can be seen here. The fore capstan is not yet ready for installation, since the shaft conceals wiring for lighting.
Overall view. Things are really going to get interesting access-wise when the carlings and ledges are made.
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It’s getting kind of tight in there, Kurt.
It sure is. The ledges are going to be no more than toothpicks.
Hi Kurt,Before all the beams and supports crowd me out of the gun deck, the hawse pipes for the anchor cable needed to be located and drilled. This was done, and the starboard anchor cable for the forward anchor on that side was installed. The anchor cable was fed through the hawse pipe, with turns over the bit and led back along the deck with the end passed below deck through the grate.
Next, it was discovered that John McCay's locations for the beams, lodging knees, and hanging knees was incorrect when compared Goodwin's The Construction and Fitting of the English Man of War 1650-1850, which is a more reliable source. Goodwin describes a convention used in the 18th century in which the lodging knees are forward of the beams in the forward half of the ship, and the reverse is true for the after half of the ship since obtuse angled knees are stronger than acute angled knees. This convention should be used since it makes sense and might well have been used in the 17th century as well.
Also, the beams are supposed to be positioned under the gun ports, with other beams between these. McCay's drawings of the Sovereign violate these conventions. So, DEMOLITION was again necessary to correct the knees. I will not reposition the few beams I have in place, since they are close to the correct positions, but four conflicts between the guns and hanging knees, which have yet to be fabricated and installed, were apparent.Lesson learned once again: DON'T TRUST McCAY. He makes pretty pictures, but knows less than he should about ship hull structures. Luckily, the work forward will proceed with me being a tad smarter about placing the hull internals.
The modified Korabel 18th century capstan was finished for the aft capstan. The capstan was recreated as a 17th century style one and installed aft of the main mast. Also, little details needed to be addressed before continuing the beams overhead, such as installing anchor lines and deck rings.
If you guys can think of any other details besides the chain pumps that could be added to this deck before it is closed off, please let me know. This model may not be as correct in every detail as a scratch built POF vessel, but it's getting a heavy duty upgrade from the kit and all these goodies will look great when it's finished. Next are more deck fittings and columns, and I have to scour my other resource books for any information on ladder locations because I don't trust McCay.
Using Payne's illustration and McCay's drawing of the lower gun deck, the positions of the hawse pipes were establish and drill through the hull.
View attachment 278900
Reworked lodging knee positions. Note the new deck rings and starboard anchor cable. The port anchor cable will be added along with a messenger cable, with its anchor hanging from the cathead as if it is being weighed and prepared for storage on the channel.
View attachment 278901
Blackened 1.5mm rings and deck hooks made from 18 gauge brass wire were glued into holes in the deck and various positions.
View attachment 278902
The top section of the capstan was cut off in favor of the older style one made from dowel.
View attachment 278903
A square diamond file was used to reshape the holes to square shape.
View attachment 278904
Not bad for a Korabel kit conversion!
View attachment 278905
Capstan installed.
View attachment 278906
Coming back to your remark about the lodging knees in mcKay. McKay is using obtuse lodging knees as also described by Goodwin.
See mckays drawing below.
