HMS Sovereign of the Seas - Bashing DeAgostini Beyond Believable Boundaries

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

The columns and mascalons (masks) between the lower gallery dragons and fish tailed wyverns are done.

 

[Bilge Ratt]

Good Morning Kurt;

You are doing some great work; for information, a fish-tailed wyvern would actually be called a sea-dragon; just as a sea-horse is the front half of a horse with a fish's tail. Both of these are depicted pulling the chariots of various sea-gods or goddesses in contemporary works. The horses could be shown with or without wings. I suspect that a dragon without wings would be a sea-serpent, though (I carved stone for a living for years, and studied heraldry etc)

Sorry to say this, and I really hate to be a bit negative, but I think that the Tudor rose in one of the panels spoils an otherwise great set of work. The theme for the panels is trophies of war: a display of the captured weapons of a beaten enemy, set up around the winning general's tent, or displayed in a public triumph. I would say that it is most unlikely that a victor would display his own ancestors' badges amongst those of a beaten enemy. I suspect that the object in question is more likely to be a drum, lying on its side, although it is difficult to be sure, due to the deadeyes in the foreground.

There is a Tudor rose amongst the carvings on the beakhead, but this is amongst a display of the king's ancestors' badges, and is in a very different context (the iconography of the beakhead carvings is very interesting, and is a subject for another day)

In contemporary documents, such as carvers' contracts for work to be carried out, and financial records, the vertical dividers between the carved panels are always called brackets; with the head occasionally referred to as the mask. I suspect that this was done when the head was carved separately, which was often done if it lapped over the moulded rail. Longer brackets, stretching over a couple of decks, were frequently called 'terms'.

Keep up the great work you are doing, and I wish you a happy completion!

Ratty

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Good Morning Kurt;

You are doing some great work; for information, a fish-tailed wyvern would actually be called a sea-dragon; just as a sea-horse is the front half of a horse with a fish's tail. Both of these are depicted pulling the chariots of various sea-gods or goddesses in contemporary works. The horses could be shown with or without wings. I suspect that a dragon without wings would be a sea-serpent, though (I carved stone for a living for years, and studied heraldry etc)

Sorry to say this, and I really hate to be a bit negative, but I think that the Tudor rose in one of the panels spoils an otherwise great set of work. The theme for the panels is trophies of war: a display of the captured weapons of a beaten enemy, set up around the winning general's tent, or displayed in a public triumph. I would say that it is most unlikely that a victor would display his own ancestors' badges amongst those of a beaten enemy. I suspect that the object in question is more likely to be a drum, lying on its side, although it is difficult to be sure, due to the deadeyes in the foreground.

There is a Tudor rose amongst the carvings on the beakhead, but this is amongst a display of the king's ancestors' badges, and is in a very different context (the iconography of the beakhead carvings is very interesting, and is a subject for another day)

In contemporary documents, such as carvers' contracts for work to be carried out, and financial records, the vertical dividers between the carved panels are always called brackets; with the head occasionally referred to as the mask. I suspect that this was done when the head was carved separately, which was often done if it lapped over the moulded rail. Longer brackets, stretching over a couple of decks, were frequently called 'terms'.

Keep up the great work you are doing, and I wish you a happy completion!

Ratty

Hi @Bilge Ratt,

Terminology comments noted and much appreciated! This is a big help.

Sea dragon
Sea serpent
Brackets
Mask
Terms

Added those to my growing lexicon. Remember - I am an amateur!

I understand your thinking behind the contradiction of displaying the Tudor Roses and the military themed icons on that row of decorations. I agree. Hendrik Busmann was not specific regarding what objects were in this particular panel. That object can be re-made, but it is so difficult to make out what it is. You mentioned a drum lying on its side, but I am having trouble making that out. I can't make out if the central object(s) are shields or something else. Failing that, I placed two roses there. I think I see the butt stocks of two matchlocks on the left. The swords are more clearly shown behind the deadeyes. To our other members, please tell me what you think, guys. Often others can see what you do not.

 

[Namabiiru]

Hi @Bilge Ratt,

Terminology comments noted and much appreciated! This is a big help.

Sea dragon
Sea serpent
Brackets
Mask
Terms

Added those to my growing lexicon. Remember - I am an amateur!

I understand your thinking behind the contradiction of displaying the Tudor Roses and the military themed icons on that row of decorations. I agree. Hendrik Busmann was not specific regarding what objects were in this particular panel. That object can be re-made, but it is so difficult to make out what it is. You mentioned a drum lying on its side, but I am having trouble making that out. I can't make out if the central object(s) are shields or something else. Failing that, I placed two roses there. I think I see the butt stocks of two matchlocks on the left. The swords are more clearly shown behind the deadeyes. To our other members, please tell me what you think, guys. Often others can see what you do not.

View attachment 557822

I could see it being a drum, a shield, or even possibly a plumed helmet.

 

[Bilge Ratt]

Hi Kurt/Namabiiru;

Thanks for the better picture of this panel: I think that Namabiiru's suggestion of a helmet is correct; well spotted! The peak is pointing to the left, between the 2nd & 3rd set of deadeyes; there is an ear-flap pointing downwards and left, below the third deadeye in the bottom row, and a neck-guard at the bottom between the 3rd & 4th deadeyes; and there could well be a crest on top, behind the 4th deadeyes.
It is possible that the object at the top, between the 3rd & 4th deadeyes, is the stock of another arquebus, whose barrel is pointing downwards to the right, ending at the top of the port-lid, and passing behind the helmet's crest.

Ratty

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Hi Kurt/Namabiiru;

Thanks for the better picture of this panel: I think that Namabiiru's suggestion of a helmet is correct; well spotted! The peak is pointing to the left, between the 2nd & 3rd set of deadeyes; there is an ear-flap pointing downwards and left, below the third deadeye in the bottom row, and a neck-guard at the bottom between the 3rd & 4th deadeyes; and there could well be a crest on top, behind the 4th deadeyes.
It is possible that the object at the top, between the 3rd & 4th deadeyes, is the stock of another arquebus, whose barrel is pointing downwards to the right, ending at the top of the port-lid, and passing behind the helmet's crest.

Ratty

OMG! I see it now! It's a burgonet! Well done, @Namabiiru ! Can you pick out any other items? This ship project has become a test of pattern recognition.





Thanks to both of you. Truly helpful. I noticed that the comb of the helmet appears to be occluded by some object in green, which looks like foliage or a cloud.

Comparing this panel to the one on the Morgan drawing, You can see an extra bracket and crowned object just aft of the panel we are discussing which is not found on the Payne engraving. This blurry picture is the best scan of the Morgan drawing which I can find. If anyone has a better one, please let me know.


The Pett presentation painting of the starboard side of the ship is no help, since the panel in question is completely different. It should a round shield over a collection of weapons. Note that he extra bracket and small decoration panel forward of the balcony is shown here just like on the Morgan drawing.



Luckily, I had a backup of the blender file which still has the unmerged objects for this panel. Hiding the two roses, here is what's left:

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

I found this pikeman asset object online. Let's use it!




There you go!