• Win a Free Custom Engraved Brass Coin!!!
    As a way to introduce our brass coins to the community, we will raffle off a free coin during the month of August. Follow link ABOVE for instructions for entering.

HMS Sovereign of the Seas - Bashing DeAgostini Beyond Believable Boundaries

Good Morning Kurt;

You are doing some great work; for information, a fish-tailed wyvern would actually be called a sea-dragon; just as a sea-horse is the front half of a horse with a fish's tail. Both of these are depicted pulling the chariots of various sea-gods or goddesses in contemporary works. The horses could be shown with or without wings. I suspect that a dragon without wings would be a sea-serpent, though (I carved stone for a living for years, and studied heraldry etc)

Sorry to say this, and I really hate to be a bit negative, but I think that the Tudor rose in one of the panels spoils an otherwise great set of work. The theme for the panels is trophies of war: a display of the captured weapons of a beaten enemy, set up around the winning general's tent, or displayed in a public triumph. I would say that it is most unlikely that a victor would display his own ancestors' badges amongst those of a beaten enemy. I suspect that the object in question is more likely to be a drum, lying on its side, although it is difficult to be sure, due to the deadeyes in the foreground.

There is a Tudor rose amongst the carvings on the beakhead, but this is amongst a display of the king's ancestors' badges, and is in a very different context (the iconography of the beakhead carvings is very interesting, and is a subject for another day)

In contemporary documents, such as carvers' contracts for work to be carried out, and financial records, the vertical dividers between the carved panels are always called brackets; with the head occasionally referred to as the mask. I suspect that this was done when the head was carved separately, which was often done if it lapped over the moulded rail. Longer brackets, stretching over a couple of decks, were frequently called 'terms'.

Keep up the great work you are doing, and I wish you a happy completion!

Ratty
 
Bilge Ratt said:
Good Morning Kurt;

You are doing some great work; for information, a fish-tailed wyvern would actually be called a sea-dragon; just as a sea-horse is the front half of a horse with a fish's tail. Both of these are depicted pulling the chariots of various sea-gods or goddesses in contemporary works. The horses could be shown with or without wings. I suspect that a dragon without wings would be a sea-serpent, though (I carved stone for a living for years, and studied heraldry etc)

Sorry to say this, and I really hate to be a bit negative, but I think that the Tudor rose in one of the panels spoils an otherwise great set of work. The theme for the panels is trophies of war: a display of the captured weapons of a beaten enemy, set up around the winning general's tent, or displayed in a public triumph. I would say that it is most unlikely that a victor would display his own ancestors' badges amongst those of a beaten enemy. I suspect that the object in question is more likely to be a drum, lying on its side, although it is difficult to be sure, due to the deadeyes in the foreground.

There is a Tudor rose amongst the carvings on the beakhead, but this is amongst a display of the king's ancestors' badges, and is in a very different context (the iconography of the beakhead carvings is very interesting, and is a subject for another day)

In contemporary documents, such as carvers' contracts for work to be carried out, and financial records, the vertical dividers between the carved panels are always called brackets; with the head occasionally referred to as the mask. I suspect that this was done when the head was carved separately, which was often done if it lapped over the moulded rail. Longer brackets, stretching over a couple of decks, were frequently called 'terms'.

Keep up the great work you are doing, and I wish you a happy completion!

Ratty
Click to expand...
Hi @Bilge Ratt,

Terminology comments noted and much appreciated! This is a big help.

Sea dragon
Sea serpent
Brackets
Mask
Terms

Added those to my growing lexicon. Remember - I am an amateur! :D

I understand your thinking behind the contradiction of displaying the Tudor Roses and the military themed icons on that row of decorations. I agree. Hendrik Busmann was not specific regarding what objects were in this particular panel. That object can be re-made, but it is so difficult to make out what it is. You mentioned a drum lying on its side, but I am having trouble making that out. I can't make out if the central object(s) are shields or something else. Failing that, I placed two roses there. I think I see the butt stocks of two matchlocks on the left. The swords are more clearly shown behind the deadeyes. To our other members, please tell me what you think, guys. Often others can see what you do not.

1763490942842.png
 
Last edited:
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:
Hi @Bilge Ratt,

Terminology comments noted and much appreciated! This is a big help.

Sea dragon
Sea serpent
Brackets
Mask
Terms

Added those to my growing lexicon. Remember - I am an amateur! :D

I understand your thinking behind the contradiction of displaying the Tudor Roses and the military themed icons on that row of decorations. I agree. Hendrik Busmann was not specific regarding what objects were in this particular panel. That object can be re-made, but it is so difficult to make out what it is. You mentioned a drum lying on its side, but I am having trouble making that out. I can't make out if the central object(s) are shields or something else. Failing that, I placed two roses there. I think I see the butt stocks of two matchlocks on the left. The swords are more clearly shown behind the deadeyes. To our other members, please tell me what you think, guys. Often others can see what you do not.

View attachment 557822
Click to expand...
I could see it being a drum, a shield, or even possibly a plumed helmet.
 
Hi Kurt/Namabiiru;

Thanks for the better picture of this panel: I think that Namabiiru's suggestion of a helmet is correct; well spotted! The peak is pointing to the left, between the 2nd & 3rd set of deadeyes; there is an ear-flap pointing downwards and left, below the third deadeye in the bottom row, and a neck-guard at the bottom between the 3rd & 4th deadeyes; and there could well be a crest on top, behind the 4th deadeyes.
It is possible that the object at the top, between the 3rd & 4th deadeyes, is the stock of another arquebus, whose barrel is pointing downwards to the right, ending at the top of the port-lid, and passing behind the helmet's crest.

Ratty
 
Last edited:
Bilge Ratt said:
Hi Kurt/Namabiiru;

Thanks for the better picture of this panel: I think that Namabiiru's suggestion of a helmet is correct; well spotted! The peak is pointing to the left, between the 2nd & 3rd set of deadeyes; there is an ear-flap pointing downwards and left, below the third deadeye in the bottom row, and a neck-guard at the bottom between the 3rd & 4th deadeyes; and there could well be a crest on top, behind the 4th deadeyes.
It is possible that the object at the top, between the 3rd & 4th deadeyes, is the stock of another arquebus, whose barrel is pointing downwards to the right, ending at the top of the port-lid, and passing behind the helmet's crest.

Ratty
Click to expand...
OMG! I see it now! It's a burgonet! Well done, @Namabiiru ! Can you pick out any other items? This ship project has become a test of pattern recognition.

1763501924027.png

1763502803143.png

Thanks to both of you. Truly helpful. :D Thumbsup I noticed that the comb of the helmet appears to be occluded by some object in green, which looks like foliage or a cloud.

Comparing this panel to the one on the Morgan drawing, You can see an extra bracket and crowned object just aft of the panel we are discussing which is not found on the Payne engraving. This blurry picture is the best scan of the Morgan drawing which I can find. If anyone has a better one, please let me know.
1763503236153.png

The Pett presentation painting of the starboard side of the ship is no help, since the panel in question is completely different. It should a round shield over a collection of weapons. Note that he extra bracket and small decoration panel forward of the balcony is shown here just like on the Morgan drawing.
1763503638989.png


Luckily, I had a backup of the blender file which still has the unmerged objects for this panel. Hiding the two roses, here is what's left:
1763504266450.png
 
Last edited:
Hi Kurt;

The Morgan drawing is of no help here; Payne has made a better job of the decoration here, whereas Van de Velde's panel is not clear. Also, the details of the stern galleries on the VdeV drawing are very poorly defined, and do not match in quality the remainder of the works. I think that VdeV struggled with the details of the stern; in part because, when he drew the Sovereign, she was in dry dock undergoing a repair. The stern galleries he obviously was not happy with, as what we see now is a separate piece of paper stuck over the top of whatever it was that he had drawn previously. There are definite errors in his work here though, as the cannon shown are not in line with the remainder of those on the same deck.

Regarding the additional bracket and small panel, I would certainly believe this to be correct, as in other areas the arrangement of the brackets is retained from the top to the bottom of all the decorative works. Payne presumably made a bit of an error here.

Ratty
 
Bilge Ratt said:
Hi Kurt;

The Morgan drawing is of no help here; Payne has made a better job of the decoration here, whereas Van de Velde's panel is not clear. Also, the details of the stern galleries on the VdeV drawing are very poorly defined, and do not match in quality the remainder of the works. I think that VdeV struggled with the details of the stern; in part because, when he drew the Sovereign, she was in dry dock undergoing a repair. The stern galleries he obviously was not happy with, as what we see now is a separate piece of paper stuck over the top of whatever it was that he had drawn previously. There are definite errors in his work here though, as the cannon shown are not in line with the remainder of those on the same deck.

Regarding the additional bracket and small panel, I would certainly believe this to be correct, as in other areas the arrangement of the brackets is retained from the top to the bottom of all the decorative works. Payne presumably made a bit of an error here.

Ratty
Click to expand...
Making the additional small panel would line up and match the brackets vertically. I wil have to rethink how to squeeze that panel in over the Payne engraving, or leave it as-is.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top