LA SALAMANDRE, bomb ketch - POF - (CAF-models, 1/48)

[Uwek]

I had a question about the Ancre plans. Do they show each and every frame drawing individually. Do the plans show enough views and such that I could build the model entirely from scratch if I wanted to?

Bob

Hallo Bob,
due to the fact, that I have also the ancre monographie of the La Salamandre I can positively answer your question.
For better overview I copied the description of the book and plans from the ancre page

Content:
A 138 page brochure, 24x31 cm format, including :

- The history of bomb ketch in the French style, and the history of other sea-mortars holders.
- The description of the French bomber galiot and its use.
- La Salamandre 1752-1791 - a detailed report of the 1765 campaign.
- The Bombardments of the Moroccan ports of SALE and LARRACHE.
- Detailed commentaries giving extensive explanations of the thirty four plates at 1:48 scale.
- Commentaries on thirty-one photos of the model of a bomb ketch of the period, 1:18 scale.
- Complete nomenclature of fittings and rigging.

A 38-plate set including :

- 1 color plate giving the color scheme of the period
- 3 plates with detailed commentaries on the blocks
- 34 plates at 1:48 scale representing :
- Details of the timbers, with all the frames and details of the head and stern structures at 1:48 scale.
- Details of the fittings
- Details of the rigging.

All the frames are shown, but also the interiour, the masts and rigging, details of the blocks etc.......so everything necessary for a scratch build of this beautifull ship.
In the following I made some photos of some plans, that you can get a feeling for this plan-set



Here is the link to the ancre page:
https://ancre.fr/en/monographies-en/32-monographie-la-salamandre-galiote-a-bombes-1758.html

and there is written by ancre:
The numerous models of the SALAMANDRE that our readers have shown us attest to the fact that by reading this monograph they were able to build excellent models and occasionally a masterpiece.

 

[Uwek]

G'day Uwek
Re: post 34
I don't know that kit at all, but if I was you, I would check, double check and even triple check to see if I've got the CORRECT piece of timber before I would cut it to lenght.

To find the correct timber is definitely not the problem. For most of the frames 15 pieces are available, clearly marked and with the help of the content list it is clear which frame part is for which frame......and to find out at which location inside the frame construction is also no problem

I would even go to the point and emailing Max, if any one else have to cut some parts short.
I would put that frame a side and do another one.

If I would do this I would never start with the kit.......The small but existing difference in the lengths of the futtocks etc. (we are talking about micrometers to maximum 1,0 mm) is at each single frame......

Sorry if I'm butting in, but I would go through the entire laser cut pieces and placed each piece of every frame into a separate small zipper bag and Mark on each bag the frame number. ONLY THEN AFTER CHECKING EVERY PIECE 3 TIMES I WOULD CUT A PIECE.
Often, you can find 2 pieces labeled incorrectly or you might find that the piece some where else.
Just be careful when you do something drastic. I have learnt the hard way before and that's one lesson I'll never repeat.

Off course checking and checking is important before doing something drastic........My father standard sentence was often: "Three times cutted, but still too short!"

That is why, my build log hasn't started yet. I'm going through the whole kit first and building it in my head and my computer.

Time is free, parts are not.​

Havagooday
Greg

Time is free, parts are not
Yes, but it is only wood.......if necessary and I made maybe one frame completely wrong I could make by myself an extra scratch built frame.......because of this flexibility I like so much the work with wood.......maybe difference would be the carvings in the kits, due to the fact, that I am not able to make them new.....but frames? should be possible

But many thanks for your hints and comments, it is often good to have another opinion and also two additional eyes to get another view.....This is the very positive feeling, when you communicate and share in this forum our hobby.......we are not allone

 

[Uwek]

I sure hope the template drawings are correct size after printing.
Otherwise, you are doing a fabulous job of a kit that seems to be way out of accuracy.
It's a wonder that complaints have not withdrawn the kit.

Hallo Peter,
many thanks for your kind words and comment.
I see this in a little bit different way.....Accuracy? It is a definition how you see this.
If the timbers would be in the absolute correct lengths cutted with the laser, than we would have the sitiuation if you cut or sand off the char of the laser (like ADC described) some timbers would be maybe a little bit too short, so you would have an open joint.
When the parts are slightly too long, you are able to make a very accurate connection if you cut the length to the correct size, off course every time in combination to the set of drawings you are using. With the construction of the frames I am following the kit drawings.
BTW: the form, curves etc. of the frame parts are absolutely correct, with a little bit of necessary "meat" for later smooth sanding to get the correct form of the hull.
Me personally I am happy with the frames if the kit.....
BTW2: I copied the original kit drawings of the frames and use them for glueing.....off course I checked, that there is not missmatch between the copy compared to the original

 

[zoly99sask]

I had a question about the Ancre plans. Do they show each and every frame drawing individually. Do the plans show enough views and such that I could build the model entirely from scratch if I wanted to?

Bob

Hello Bob,here is a scratch build of the Salamandre used the Ancre plans.Use goggle translator extension on Chrome to read the build log.

http://www.koga.net.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45782


Zoltan

 

[Uwek]

Hello Bob,here is a scratch build of the Salamandre used the Ancre plans.Use goggle translator extension on Chrome to read the build log.
http://www.koga.net.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45782
Zoltan

Thanks Zoltan,
Be only careful...this is a 1:24 built.......the original drawings are completely in 1:48.....so the model will be appr. 2m long !!!
if you google "La Salamandre" + "Boudriot" you can find in photos several beautiful scratch builts especially by french modelers.
The plan set is one of the first ones Jean Boudriot made and published years ago. It is a relatively easier ship, so several people built already this ship.
Take a look also at
http://5500.forumactif.org/f33-la-salamandre-1752-plans-jean-boudriot
or
http://modelisme.arsenal.free.fr/jacquesmailliere/La Salamandre/indexgb.html

 

[Uwek]

I have been working the ribs a little different to Uwek. I am only using the green and red marks as guidelines and not cutting futtocks to them. Just hand sanding the char off the end of the futtocks. I have been mainly matching the ribs to the ANCRE plans. I have been getting a little extra “belly” on the kit drawings but a good match to the ANCRE drawings working this way. I am not sure if I am doing this correctly and maybe have problems later but the shape seems matching nicely to the ANCRE plans at this stage. Interesting learning experience working with ribs.

I also compared the wooden elements, the drawings from the kit and the ancre plans of the frames......I realized, that the ancre frames are partly a little bit wider than the drawings of the kit. I made my decision and followed the kit drawings, due to the fact, that I think, that later on I will have less missmatch later on with the interior elements of the kit. I am happy that you are building the same ship, so we can compare very often our experience of maybe different decisions we made.
Let us hope and pray, check measurements as often as necessary.......but it is still only wood

In the follwing I want to compare the drawings, on the left side ancre and on the right side kit, with the frames.....I used the same frames 11 and 12 which ADC showed.



We can see some micrometer, maybe 0,5 mm difference



More difference to the ancre plans I could find at the frames close to the bow.......showing frame 1 to 4 on top of the ancre plans....here I have approximately 1mm difference

 

[lauckstreet]

Hallo Bob,
due to the fact, that I have also the ancre monographie of the La Salamandre I can positively answer your question.
For better overview I copied the description of the book and plans from the ancre page

Content:
A 138 page brochure, 24x31 cm format, including :

- The history of bomb ketch in the French style, and the history of other sea-mortars holders.
- The description of the French bomber galiot and its use.
- La Salamandre 1752-1791 - a detailed report of the 1765 campaign.
- The Bombardments of the Moroccan ports of SALE and LARRACHE.
- Detailed commentaries giving extensive explanations of the thirty four plates at 1:48 scale.
- Commentaries on thirty-one photos of the model of a bomb ketch of the period, 1:18 scale.
- Complete nomenclature of fittings and rigging.

A 38-plate set including :

- 1 color plate giving the color scheme of the period
- 3 plates with detailed commentaries on the blocks
- 34 plates at 1:48 scale representing :
- Details of the timbers, with all the frames and details of the head and stern structures at 1:48 scale.
- Details of the fittings
- Details of the rigging.

All the frames are shown, but also the interiour, the masts and rigging, details of the blocks etc.......so everything necessary for a scratch build of this beautifull ship.
In the following I made some photos of some plans, that you can get a feeling for this plan-set

View attachment 35638View attachment 35639View attachment 35640

Here is the link to the ancre page:
https://ancre.fr/en/monographies-en/32-monographie-la-salamandre-galiote-a-bombes-1758.html

and there is written by ancre:
The numerous models of the SALAMANDRE that our readers have shown us attest to the fact that by reading this monograph they were able to build excellent models and occasionally a masterpiece.

Thanks Uwe, I appreciate the information. I just might have to order the set.

Bob

 

[Swabbie]

Thank you @Uwek for all your reassurances for us members concerned for your excellent efforts.

 

[ADC]

I also compared the wooden elements, the drawings from the kit and the ancre plans of the frames......I realized, that the ancre frames are partly a little bit wider than the drawings of the kit. I made my decision and followed the kit drawings, due to the fact, that I think, that later on I will have less missmatch later on with the interior elements of the kit. I am happy that you are building the same ship, so we can compare very often our experience of maybe different decisions we made.
Let us hope and pray, check measurements as often as necessary.......but it is still only wood

In the follwing I want to compare the drawings, on the left side ancre and on the right side kit, with the frames.....I used the same frames 11 and 12 which ADC showed.

View attachment 35641View attachment 35642

We can see some micrometer, maybe 0,5 mm difference

View attachment 35644

More difference to the ancre plans I could find at the frames close to the bow.......showing frame 1 to 4 on top of the ancre plans....here I have approximately 1mm difference

View attachment 35643

Thanks Uwek, I think later that the interior of mine may end up with slightly more width in the interior at the widest part than yours. Perhaps a millimetre or two. If this causes any issues time will tell though I dont expect anything major to go wrong. One of the Russian or Chinese build logs I have seen, the builder had to extend the width of the interior timber walls to fit them. The template was too narrow. Perhaps he used the same method as I did? If I had to start again I would likely follow your lead.

 

[ADC]

I had a question about the Ancre plans. Do they show each and every frame drawing individually. Do the plans show enough views and such that I could build the model entirely from scratch if I wanted to?

Bob

Here is another scratch built model from the plans. The ANCRE plans as Uwek has said are very detailed. Even includes all the precise rigging knots required and correct ropework details.
http://www.modelships.de/Salamandre_Schoeberl/Photos model of bomb ketch Salamandre.htm

 

[Uwek]

Here is another scratch built model from the plans. The ANCRE plans as Uwek has said are very detailed. Even includes all the precise rigging knots required and correct ropework details.
http://www.modelships.de/Salamandre_Schoeberl/Photos model of bomb ketch Salamandre.htm

Many thanks for the link to the model of Peter Schöberl, a German modeler, who built his model completely in „Swiss pear“ in german called „Elsbeere“. In my opinion the most beautifull wood for ship modeling.

 

[Uwek]

A small status report of the frame building....24 done......two are waiting "under the glass"



It is a good feeling to see that it is realy getting the form of a ships-hull

 

[Peglegreg]

G'day Uwek

Congratulations on the completion of the forms.​

You were quicker than you said.
It must be a Marvellous feeling knowing 'that' part is over.
Havagooday
Greg

 

[Uwek]

G'day Uwek

Congratulations on the completion of the forms.​

You were quicker than you said.
It must be a Marvellous feeling knowing 'that' part is over.
Havagooday
Greg

Hallo Greg,
I am not so fast.....there are still appr. 20 more waiting.....so on a half way only

 

[Nj0rdr]

Hello Uwe,

I really like the progress of your kit. It will turn out to be a marvelous model.

 

[Peglegreg]

Hallo Greg,
I am not so fast.....there are still appr. 20 more waiting.....so on a half way only

Oh ok, I didn't realized.

My bad, as my son's expression goes. I think it means my stuff up or similar.

Havagooday
Greg

 

[lauckstreet]

What I like about these Chinese kits, based on my experience building the Le Requin and the Mayflower (which I'm still working on) is that the frame parts have the bevel lines etched on them. By positioning the bottom layer of the frame with the etched lines against the frame drawing and the top layer with the etched lines facing you, you can easily get accurate bevels when you finish the frames before putting them in the jig. I think that's brilliant, like they thought of everything and used the laser technology to etch the bevel line onto the frame parts.

Great job so far Uwe. I wish I had the money to buy this kit but I'm seriously considering buying the Ancre plans and building it from scratch.

Bob

 

[Peglegreg]

What I like about these Chinese kits, based on my experience building the Le Requin and the Mayflower (which I'm still working on) is that the frame parts have the bevel lines etched on them. By positioning the bottom layer of the frame with the etched lines against the frame drawing and the top layer with the etched lines facing you, you can easily get accurate bevels when you finish the frames before putting them in the jig. I think that's brilliant, like they thought of everything and used the laser technology to etch the bevel line onto the frame parts.

Great job so far Uwe. I wish I had the money to buy this kit but I'm seriously considering buying the Ancre plans and building it from scratch.

Bob

G'day Bob
I have to agree with you. These Chinese kits are brilliant but not only for the beveled bulkheads. The deck furniture are also absolutely brilliant. Every thing are supplied for you, even door hinges, door handles etc.
Any ornamental carvings are included like the 'cat's head' on the Cats Heads, and the fancy decorations on any posts ETC that needed it.
The others kits manufacturers will have to pull up their sock, very soon, or they will left in the sawdust.
Havagooday to all
Greg

 

[Uwek]

What I like about these Chinese kits, based on my experience building the Le Requin and the Mayflower (which I'm still working on) is that the frame parts have the bevel lines etched on them.......

Great job so far Uwe. I wish I had the money to buy this kit but I'm seriously considering buying the Ancre plans and building it from scratch.

Bob

Hallo Bob,
Many thanks for your kind words.
I completely agree with your opinion about the quality.........for me it is the first Chinese kit, and I ordered this one, because of the high quality and (hopefully) completeness of the kit.....if you devide the price through the months of fun and working it is not so expensive.
Nevertheless I would like to see the ship built from scratch, so make the step and order the planset. It is worth the money.
BTW: i am thinking about to built the Le Requien later on from scratch.....I have the planset from ancre also, a very beautiful and interesting ship!

 

[donfarr]

Bob I am Like you, I wish I could afford this kit, I bought 2 kits from ZHL not the expensive one, one the french long boat and another the sweedish yacht from chapmans plans that one was unbuildable the instructions were 2pages and ureadable even though in english the plans were 1 sheet and totaly useless also it is sitting on my shelf untouched, so my question is it only the most expesive kits that are good, as I am thinking 2 I want to get ONE IS THE peter the great X section, and the othe is the LA POOLE only if it has a jig other wise it is a no no, also the LA JACINTH is anoter one it probally is based on the ANCRE MONOGRAPH, so a little help would be appreciated. Don