Occre - HMS Revenge 1577 - scale 1/85, 2nd build and why

Cirdan said:
The only difference between the German edition and the English one is that the large folding plans are missing in the latter.

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Thank you Cirdan.
Sounds like I should try to get a copy of the German book as it has the plans even though I don't read German, I have found Google translator using the camera gives enough info for most text to make sense.
 
Good day,
Richie, sorry, looks I missed something....
for what do You need that large folding plans?
As I understood ... You are at rigging stage presently of your model ?
But on that plans, even in big one, no running rigging belaying points diagram, but only list of numbers of rigging lines given ... if this is the reason why You want to by German version...
as Girdan says, texts in the books are the same... means no need to use translator,if You have english version of the book.
Rigging plans looks like are the same in both books as well, and even small plan in english version, printed in high quality, all numbers of rigging lines perfectly readable...
There is perfect polish paper kit ( maker Shipyard, if not mistaken ?)Revenge model , with precise rigging plans , and there is running rigging belaying plan exists.
As I understood, Shipyard have two version of that kit, with topgallant sails and without, means belaying plans could be slightly different.
Maybe some of our collegues could share those plans from the paper kit with You, if You need them?
All the best !
 
kirill4 said:
Good day,
Richie, sorry, looks I missed something....
for what do You need that large folding plans?
As I understood ... You are at rigging stage presently of your model ?
But on that plans, even in big one, no running rigging belaying points diagram, but only list of numbers of rigging lines given ... if this is the reason why You want to by German version...
as Girdan says, texts in the books are the same... means no need to use translator,if You have english version of the book.
Rigging plans looks like are the same in both books as well, and even small plan in english version, printed in high quality, all numbers of rigging lines perfectly readable...
There is perfect polish paper kit ( maker Shipyard, if not mistaken ?)Revenge model , with precise rigging plans , and there is running rigging belaying plan exists.
As I understood, Shipyard have two version of that kit, with topgallant sails and without, means belaying plans could be slightly different.
Maybe some of our collegues could share those plans from the paper kit with You, if You need them?
All the best !
Click to expand...
Hi Kirill4

Yes I am at the rigging stage and that was my idea if the German book had full plans I would try to get it, however if it doesn't then it probably wont be the best option for me, the English version is also very expensive from what I have seen.

The Occre rigging plans are simplified but I would like to try and make it more correct if I can, my plan is to go with this drawing however I only have this view and not where lines tie on to the deck etc, I have printed this on A2 size paper to try and make it easer to follow.
I could probably use the existing Occre plans to fill in some gaps but even then I traced every line and still could not see where some of the arrowed lines ended up.

Revenge Diagram.jpg

I have also trawled through other photos, logs and info elsewhere on the internet and saving pictures for future reference, the Amati version looks particularly good for reference so pity I didn't have those plans.
Incidentally I do like the Amati kit and think that is a better version but it was also twice the price in Australia compared to the Occre one, having said that I have now spent more on additional parts but that was never my intention originally.

I did see some info about a Polish paper kit but no reference to any rigging details.

I have a pdf of the Anderson book in theory I should have enough info to sort of get through it now although the little pictures are sometimes hard for me to follow.

At the end of the day there is a lot of conjecture how exactly things were done on ships 450 years ago, maybe I should have started it 50 years ago then it would have been less than 400 years oldROTFROTF
 
Richie said:
Hi Kirill4

Yes I am at the rigging stage and that was my idea if the German book had full plans I would try to get it, however if it doesn't then it probably wont be the best option for me, the English version is also very expensive from what I have seen.

The Occre rigging plans are simplified but I would like to try and make it more correct if I can, my plan is to go with this drawing however I only have this view and not where lines tie on to the deck etc, I have printed this on A2 size paper to try and make it easer to follow.
I could probably use the existing Occre plans to fill in some gaps but even then I traced every line and still could not see where some of the arrowed lines ended up.

View attachment 305923

I have also trawled through other photos, logs and info elsewhere on the internet and saving pictures for future reference, the Amati version looks particularly good for reference so pity I didn't have those plans.
Incidentally I do like the Amati kit and think that is a better version but it was also twice the price in Australia compared to the Occre one, having said that I have now spent more on additional parts but that was never my intention originally.

I did see some info about a Polish paper kit but no reference to any rigging details.

I have a pdf of the Anderson book in theory I should have enough info to sort of get through it now although the little pictures are sometimes hard for me to follow.

At the end of the day there is a lot of conjecture how exactly things were done on ships 450 years ago, maybe I should have started it 50 years ago then it would have been less than 400 years oldROTFROTF
Click to expand...
I have some plans and reconstruction of galleons rigging drwngs, and my own(I was try to follow mostly Anderson book, when I made it :))) but still not sure it is correct in all aspects :)) ) ,which I used when rigged my model...
I will give to You all links of this drwngs after 30.04.22, You could download them from cloud, and choose what You like...
One of the good option,
to use Vasa rigging plan for your purpose...
it will work perfectly for later galleon rigging as well...
all what You need - to download Vasa plans( there is detailed belaying plan as well) from Vasa forum, all links I've gave recently, and to adopt them for your own needs - from that plans You wil not need rigging of spritsai topsail, and missen square topsail- replace it for latin mizzen topsail, all belaying point will remain almost the same...and add bonaventure mast -which rigging will just repeat rigging of mizen sails...

Vasa I, ship plans | Swedish Warship Vasa

I read from time to time about Vasa I and about ship plans from the Vasamuseet. I notice the Vasamuseet does not appear to have an online store - is there a way to purchase these items from
warshipvasa.freeforums.net warshipvasa.freeforums.net
 
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Richie said:
Revenge Diagram.jpg
Click to expand...
I did a lot of research to the rigging of these ships. This plan you show here of the revenge got a lot of mistakes. A lot. The rigging of ships in the era 1550 till 1620 where different to a later era. On these ships where less wood carved statues and the stern wasn't so gracious like ships of a later era. These ships where made beautiful by painting (lot of colours) and by rigging. There where a lot difficult ways the rigging was done. A lot of crowfeet just to let it look majestic. That was the way how these sailers purely to show off their skills. When you study Kirsch and Anderson you find this back in the book.
Here is the drawing of the German book that shows the difference

drawings-8.jpg

you rigging plan of the revenge shows a lot of mistakes how the rigging was done. See below I marked a few. This plan shows the rigging of certain parts how it was done 100 years later. That is a big mistake what can be seen in a lot of plans that comes with a kit. For example Billing Boats did this too.

Revenge Diagram.jpg

I sent you a pm
 
kirill4 said:
I have some plans and reconstruction of galleons rigging drwngs, and my own(I was try to follow mostly Anderson book, when I made it :))) but still not sure it is correct in all aspects :)) ) ,which I used when rigged my model...
I will give to You all links of this drwngs after 30.04.22, You could download them from cloud, and choose what You like...
One of the good option,
to use Vasa rigging plan for your purpose...
it will work perfectly for later galleon rigging as well...
all what You need - to download Vasa plans( there is detailed belaying plan as well) from Vasa forum, all links I've gave recently, and to adopt them for your own needs - from that plans You wil not need rigging of spritsai topsail, and missen square topsail- replace it for latin mizzen topsail, all belaying point will remain almost the same...and add bonaventure mast -which rigging will just repeat rigging of mizen sails...

Vasa I, ship plans | Swedish Warship Vasa

I read from time to time about Vasa I and about ship plans from the Vasamuseet. I notice the Vasamuseet does not appear to have an online store - is there a way to purchase these items from
warshipvasa.freeforums.net warshipvasa.freeforums.net
Click to expand...
Thank you for you help Kirill4.
It but it hadn't actually occurred to me the Vasa might be relevant for the Revenge rigging, I will take a closer look but it looks like registration is required to download those links.
I am going to have to actually start this rigging soon instead of procrastinating.
 
Richie said:
Thank you for you help Kirill4.
It but it hadn't actually occurred to me the Vasa might be relevant for the Revenge rigging, I will take a closer look but it looks like registration is required to download those links.
I am going to have to actually start this rigging soon instead of procrastinating.
Click to expand...
Registration is free. But if you PM me your personal email address I can also send the drawings to you directly.
 
Steef66 said:
I did a lot of research to the rigging of these ships. This plan you show here of the revenge got a lot of mistakes. A lot. The rigging of ships in the era 1550 till 1620 where different to a later era. On these ships where less wood carved statues and the stern wasn't so gracious like ships of a later era. These ships where made beautiful by painting (lot of colours) and by rigging. There where a lot difficult ways the rigging was done. A lot of crowfeet just to let it look majestic. That was the way how these sailers purely to show off their skills. When you study Kirsch and Anderson you find this back in the book.
Here is the drawing of the German book that shows the difference

View attachment 305943

you rigging plan of the revenge shows a lot of mistakes how the rigging was done. See below I marked a few. This plan shows the rigging of certain parts how it was done 100 years later. That is a big mistake what can be seen in a lot of plans that comes with a kit. For example Billing Boats did this too.

View attachment 305944

I sent you a pm
Click to expand...
Thank you for pointing those differences out.
I had both images but the top one looked much more complex and I didn't realise that was the one in the German book and it wasn't quite as clear image, hence the reason to go for the bottom image being a simpler one for my skills now I think you have just made my life more difficult.:eek::D
PM received thank you.
 
Piter Kirsch didn't make our life easy...! :)))

If You compare museum version of Vasa rigging, to Piter Kirsch galleon rigging, You will see many similiarities... looks like both designers intensively used Anderson book :)))
At least Vasa rigging has drawing with indication of belaying points ...
 
kirill4 said:
Piter Kirsch didn't make our life easy...! :)))

If You compare museum version of Vasa rigging, to Piter Kirsch galleon rigging, You will see many similiarities... looks like both designers intensively used Anderson book :)))
At least Vasa rigging has drawing with indication of belaying points ...
Click to expand...
There is a big difference rigging a ship of 1577 or 1626. The Vasa is less complex. If you read Kirsch it becomes clear. In these years the ships rigging evolved very fast. A lot of things changed in these few years. That's why you can't use the rigging plan of the Vasa to rig a galleon of 1577
 
Good day Stephan,
Agree with you...
What I meant - it is adoptation, of couse, but not advise directly use Vasa rigging and sails plan strait for Revenge rigging ...
Remember, Richie is looking for belaying points of running rigging for his galleon, Vasa drawings show them, almost all of them...
If all names of the rigging lines in the Revenge, Piter Kirsch galleon and Vasa well known( they are the same in 99 %), than it will be easy to find where to secure Revenge running rigging lines on your own model just combine information from Vasa and Piter Kirsch galleon and apply it to Revenge rigging plan , or Elizabeth Jonas model rigging plan as well ...which are identical presented on the models...
*Piter Kirsch numbered all rigging lines on his drawing and gave the list with the number- name of all rigging lines shown on his rigging plan but he didn't gave belaying diagram of that lines
*Vasa museum model plans have belaying diagram and list of the name of all rigging lines but didn't give rigging lines numbers on the rigging plan as Piter Kirsch did...:)))

I 've strong believe they did Vasa model rigging followed Anderson book very close...
So what...and Piter Kirsch did his galleon used the same source...:)
And I still didn't see principal difference in museum Vasa model rigging and
PK galleon rigging - even almost all lines of both models have similar arrangements ...
Compare how rigged stays, shrouds,
ties and ties halliard arrangements,
how rigged braces, lifts ,cluelines, sheet lines,tacks, bowlines ...
The only differnt arrangements in leechlines lead block position , obviously there must be difference due to different main sail managing during Revenge and Vasa period...
There are of couse difference in shape and sizes of the sails ,
their number and type of the sails and spars and mast proportions....
In this respect , You are absolutely right, we can't use the rigging plan of the Vasa to rig a galleon of 1577
And important moment! Peter Kirsch so richly decorated his galleon with crowfeet...that sometimes as seems to me ,is too richly :))) compare to contemporany drawings...
but for sure all those numeros crowfeets make it unique in appearance...and need to be reproduced on elizabethian galleon...
Screenshot_20220429-201401_Gallery.jpg
 
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kirill4 said:
And important moment! Peter Kirsch so richly decorated his galleon with crowfeet...that sometimes as seems to me ,is too richly :))) compare to contemporany drawings...
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When you read the book, you can find a passage where he explain the many crowfeet. From my mind he wrote something that sailers made these beautifull looking crowfeet just to impress and show their skills when Entering a harbour.
kirill4 said:
Richie is looking for belaying points
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About the belaying point, difficult subject. Ab Hoving told me once to use the point that are availeble and use them without creating chaos but mount them logical. Because there is not much reliable evidence how it was done.
Ab Hoving said:
As to belaying locations, let me give you an advice: look for logical locations to belay your ropes. Museum models are seldom untouched, so many members of the museum staff had an opportunity to fiddle around with them.
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I did the following thing on my model. I make the ropes of the runnen rigging of on sail and belay them on the nail bank. But don't faster the rope. Just lead the line through the hole of the bank where the nail comes in and hang the rope to the side of the ship with a clamp that is acting as weight. After the rigging is done I look if everything is in place and then I put the nail in the bank to secure the rope.
IMG_0762.JPG.jpg
 
kirill4 said:
O!!! VERY GOOD IDEA!!!
I used more or less same way... :)))
View attachment 306005
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Thank you Kirill4 & Stephan for your comments and advice.
Right there above I see images from both of you for 2 of the finest examples of model galleons and detailed rigging you could ever hope to see, magnificent work.
I can only hope to take some inspiration from both of you and see if my skills will allow me to get even remotely close to resembling those fine works.

Also a general big thank you to everyone who has liked, commented or helped along the way on this model ship building journey of mine.
There is no way I would have got to this point and with what's to come without your encouragement and support, it was a bit daunting starting this build log as a relative beginner but I am very glad I did.
I am a realist and know my skills at the moment wont match it with the best but hopefully I can bring my best and perhaps other modelers in the future may benefit from this log like I have done reading others.

Now it's time for a Coffee
 
Richie said:
Sounds like I should try to get a copy of the German book as it has the plans even though I don't read German, I have found Google translator using the camera gives enough info for most text to make sense.
Click to expand...
But then it is important to make sure, that the plans are actually included. This is often not the case with the used German edition. So it's best to contact the seller before ordering.
 
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