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I do.
Soleil Royal by Heller - an Extensive Modification and Partial Scratch-Build by Hubac’s Historian
- Thread starter Hubac’s Historian
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- 1689 heller hubac refit soleil royal
Wow - that is well-done!
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Was Soleil Royal made as good as Royal Louis?
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It looked good to me.
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Could you post photos of it?
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(she's on the left of the british ship)
There you go. There where a bunch of other ships models (RC, paper, wood).
I am less than a week away from our trip to Paris, and then the North East Joint Clubs Meeting is shortly around the corner, once I return. My objective, before the show, was to get the head fully together and re-touched, as well as the upper balcony level. Well, I’m not going to cross that threshold before April 29th.
There were a number of competing priorities, throughout March, and I just couldn’t find the time I needed to make that happen. I say all of this in the event that even one of you had hoped to see the model in New London. I’ve decided not to bring it because these areas at the bow and stern will remain too un-finished looking for display.
These also happen to be particularly challenging areas of the model to bring together. I am satisfied enough with the balcony bulwark parts that I made:
Fitting the end pieces to the model required some tricky cutting-in to the outside window pilasters. You can see that the sill moulding for the window tier extends fully to the ship’s sides:
The rebate has to accommodate both the end piece and the 1/16” caprail that I have yet to make:
It’s a slow and winding business that necessitates painting in stages. One thing that was a little surprising to me is that the fore and aft depth of my middle and upper balconies is significantly more shallow than the stock kit:
Thinking about my process, I realized that I had made a design decision, earlier, when I was figuring out the middle balcony; I realized there would be limits to the degree to which I could bend the posture of the Four Seasons figures, so that they could stretch from the now “false” lower balcony to support the projection of the middle balcony. By necessity, then, the middle balcony determined the depth of the upper balcony. Proportionally, I am not displeased by the more shallow depth.
One failed experiment had to do with the bow angels that seat just behind the headrails. I used a combination of C/A and liquid plastic cement to secure the headrails. Before glue, though, I had dry-clamped each headrail in-place for several days, in order to better induce the shapes and relieve unwanted stress on the subsequent glue joint.
Now, bear in-mind that I am fully aware these headrails should be flat. The design of the kit figurehead, in combination with my widening of the bow, does not allow for any reasonable projection of the aft escutcheon of each headrail. The gap you see on Frolich’s model, below, would have been more than double on mine:
photo, courtesy of Marc Yeu
With such a distracting projection away form the forecastle bulwarks, these escutcheons would have looked like jug ears. In consideration of that, I decided it was better to perpetuate the in-accuracy of the stock headrails, which are also rounded to seat up close to the hull.
In an attempt to distribute any remaining stresses across a broader glue surface, I thought I could literally pin those escutcheon ears down with the bow angel carvings:
Unfortunately, one must drill for these pins at the precise depth and angle. This proved quite difficult to do with the headrails already in-place, and the result of my attempt was that the carving did not lay flat against the ship’s side. Forcing it to do so would have, in fact, introduced additional lever strain on the headrail glue joint. Consequently, I ground the pins away, filled the holes and simply glued the bow angels in-place. I’ll post pictures of all of that once the re-touching is complete.
The other surprising thing to me was just how much shimming was necessary for the other remaining headrail supports, now that both headrails were fixed in-place. In hindsight, it would have been much wiser to pattern these supports after the headrails had been installed. Instead, I had attempted to dry-fit them one side at a time. Using this approach, though, I could only eyeball the centerline, and only poorly at that! Just look at all the plastic I’ve added back to these parts:
Finally, though, I can do the necessary touch-ups and glue these in-place.
One part that could only be made once the headrails were installed was the forward terminus of the headrail grating. In the stock kit, Heller provides a mostly flat headrail grating, the forward end of which rests on a small ledge just behind the figurehead.
As an upgrade, I want to create a new headrail grating that is both cambered, athwartships, and that follows the upward sweeping arc of the headrails. This is a tricky piece to make and fit.
I seem to have lost the picture of the cardboard template I had made to start this part, but I transferred that pattern to a piece of 1/16” styrene. In my first attempt, I tried to muscle a bend into the part, but it snapped. On the second attempt, I used an open candle flame to soften the plastic so that I could easily induce this curve:
There was some melty distortion, at the edges, that was removed during the fitting and shaping process. As I had with the pattern, I temporarily CA’d a handle to the part for ease of fitting in this tight area. Once I had a perfect fit, I glued a piece of 1/8” square stock to the forward end so that I could shape a neat bullnose that transitions into the knee of the head:
You can also see the thinner stock that I glued to the aft end, on the under side, to create a ledge for the grating slats. To finish off the piece, I filed a gentle camber into the top surface of the part, which is now ready for paint and installation:
And so, it is a lot of fiddling around to make this imperfect geometry coalesce into something that looks purposeful and a reasonable facsimile of a ship’s head structure.
If I were starting this whole project all over again, one thing I would definitely do would be to fabricate a continuation of the middle battery planking past the beakhead bulkhead, in a downward tapering arc towards the stem. By the time I realized this was actually a feature of French practice, it was too late to incorporate the detail.
Thank you for the likes, comments and for looking-in. When I next return later in May, I will have some nice finished pictures of the head. Until then, be well!
There were a number of competing priorities, throughout March, and I just couldn’t find the time I needed to make that happen. I say all of this in the event that even one of you had hoped to see the model in New London. I’ve decided not to bring it because these areas at the bow and stern will remain too un-finished looking for display.
These also happen to be particularly challenging areas of the model to bring together. I am satisfied enough with the balcony bulwark parts that I made:
Fitting the end pieces to the model required some tricky cutting-in to the outside window pilasters. You can see that the sill moulding for the window tier extends fully to the ship’s sides:
The rebate has to accommodate both the end piece and the 1/16” caprail that I have yet to make:
It’s a slow and winding business that necessitates painting in stages. One thing that was a little surprising to me is that the fore and aft depth of my middle and upper balconies is significantly more shallow than the stock kit:
Thinking about my process, I realized that I had made a design decision, earlier, when I was figuring out the middle balcony; I realized there would be limits to the degree to which I could bend the posture of the Four Seasons figures, so that they could stretch from the now “false” lower balcony to support the projection of the middle balcony. By necessity, then, the middle balcony determined the depth of the upper balcony. Proportionally, I am not displeased by the more shallow depth.
One failed experiment had to do with the bow angels that seat just behind the headrails. I used a combination of C/A and liquid plastic cement to secure the headrails. Before glue, though, I had dry-clamped each headrail in-place for several days, in order to better induce the shapes and relieve unwanted stress on the subsequent glue joint.
Now, bear in-mind that I am fully aware these headrails should be flat. The design of the kit figurehead, in combination with my widening of the bow, does not allow for any reasonable projection of the aft escutcheon of each headrail. The gap you see on Frolich’s model, below, would have been more than double on mine:
photo, courtesy of Marc Yeu
With such a distracting projection away form the forecastle bulwarks, these escutcheons would have looked like jug ears. In consideration of that, I decided it was better to perpetuate the in-accuracy of the stock headrails, which are also rounded to seat up close to the hull.
In an attempt to distribute any remaining stresses across a broader glue surface, I thought I could literally pin those escutcheon ears down with the bow angel carvings:
Unfortunately, one must drill for these pins at the precise depth and angle. This proved quite difficult to do with the headrails already in-place, and the result of my attempt was that the carving did not lay flat against the ship’s side. Forcing it to do so would have, in fact, introduced additional lever strain on the headrail glue joint. Consequently, I ground the pins away, filled the holes and simply glued the bow angels in-place. I’ll post pictures of all of that once the re-touching is complete.
The other surprising thing to me was just how much shimming was necessary for the other remaining headrail supports, now that both headrails were fixed in-place. In hindsight, it would have been much wiser to pattern these supports after the headrails had been installed. Instead, I had attempted to dry-fit them one side at a time. Using this approach, though, I could only eyeball the centerline, and only poorly at that! Just look at all the plastic I’ve added back to these parts:
Finally, though, I can do the necessary touch-ups and glue these in-place.
One part that could only be made once the headrails were installed was the forward terminus of the headrail grating. In the stock kit, Heller provides a mostly flat headrail grating, the forward end of which rests on a small ledge just behind the figurehead.
As an upgrade, I want to create a new headrail grating that is both cambered, athwartships, and that follows the upward sweeping arc of the headrails. This is a tricky piece to make and fit.
I seem to have lost the picture of the cardboard template I had made to start this part, but I transferred that pattern to a piece of 1/16” styrene. In my first attempt, I tried to muscle a bend into the part, but it snapped. On the second attempt, I used an open candle flame to soften the plastic so that I could easily induce this curve:
There was some melty distortion, at the edges, that was removed during the fitting and shaping process. As I had with the pattern, I temporarily CA’d a handle to the part for ease of fitting in this tight area. Once I had a perfect fit, I glued a piece of 1/8” square stock to the forward end so that I could shape a neat bullnose that transitions into the knee of the head:
You can also see the thinner stock that I glued to the aft end, on the under side, to create a ledge for the grating slats. To finish off the piece, I filed a gentle camber into the top surface of the part, which is now ready for paint and installation:
And so, it is a lot of fiddling around to make this imperfect geometry coalesce into something that looks purposeful and a reasonable facsimile of a ship’s head structure.
If I were starting this whole project all over again, one thing I would definitely do would be to fabricate a continuation of the middle battery planking past the beakhead bulkhead, in a downward tapering arc towards the stem. By the time I realized this was actually a feature of French practice, it was too late to incorporate the detail.
Thank you for the likes, comments and for looking-in. When I next return later in May, I will have some nice finished pictures of the head. Until then, be well!
As usual great work Marc,
Enjoy your trip to Paris.
I am sure even in an un-finished state your model would be a show stopper.
Cheers,
Stephen.
Hi Marc,
While it seems unlikely, I would love to see your model in person one day - perhaps a trip to the east coast could include a visit to NYC in the future...
I hope you have a wonderful time in Paris/France. Not sure about your agenda but Lynn and I worked from a central location and used the subway/train to head in a different direction each day. By escaping the usual and customary (which should also be seen) we had some marvelous experiences immersing ourselves into the local culture. We're sort of foodies, so we allowed meals to shape our time there to great advantage. Enjoy!
While it seems unlikely, I would love to see your model in person one day - perhaps a trip to the east coast could include a visit to NYC in the future...
I hope you have a wonderful time in Paris/France. Not sure about your agenda but Lynn and I worked from a central location and used the subway/train to head in a different direction each day. By escaping the usual and customary (which should also be seen) we had some marvelous experiences immersing ourselves into the local culture. We're sort of foodies, so we allowed meals to shape our time there to great advantage. Enjoy!
Thank you Steve and Paul and to everyone for the likes.
Paris certainly is a place to eat; perhaps not too much at any one time, portion-wise, but gastronomically speaking the city offers endless savory delights. Here is a picture of me and Dad in the early spring of 1994. He was in Paris for two weeks conducting a corporate conference for Equitable Life. After traveling around through Venice, Prague, Budapest, and Munich I met Dad in Paris for 10 days, where I experienced a distinct reversal of my accommodations (The Hotel Intercontinental), and subsistence.
Dad and I proceeded to enjoy all the best that Tour D’Argent, La Crayeres, La Serre, Couchon D’Or, among other restaurants and cafes, had to offer. This was back in a lavish and indulgent time of loosely monitored expense reports. Dad is 60, here, and I am 21 with about half the hair I was born with.
It was an amazing trip that really brought me much closer to my father than I had been, up to that point in life.
Paris certainly is a place to eat; perhaps not too much at any one time, portion-wise, but gastronomically speaking the city offers endless savory delights. Here is a picture of me and Dad in the early spring of 1994. He was in Paris for two weeks conducting a corporate conference for Equitable Life. After traveling around through Venice, Prague, Budapest, and Munich I met Dad in Paris for 10 days, where I experienced a distinct reversal of my accommodations (The Hotel Intercontinental), and subsistence.
Dad and I proceeded to enjoy all the best that Tour D’Argent, La Crayeres, La Serre, Couchon D’Or, among other restaurants and cafes, had to offer. This was back in a lavish and indulgent time of loosely monitored expense reports. Dad is 60, here, and I am 21 with about half the hair I was born with.
It was an amazing trip that really brought me much closer to my father than I had been, up to that point in life.
Great work Marc and very interesting reading as we wrestle with the same area.
I totally agree that these head timbers are flat on L'Ambiteaux but not entirely 100% convinced they are on SR.Even a small gap to the hull aft would be much larger when the Angels are fitted and the bellflower garland would drape across this gap to the hull. Faceting the angel carving to the head timber would alleviate this but not convinced it would look correct.Mmmmmm decisions......
I hope you all have a great trip and that your research deviation is fruitful
Kind Regards
Nigel
I totally agree that these head timbers are flat on L'Ambiteaux but not entirely 100% convinced they are on SR.Even a small gap to the hull aft would be much larger when the Angels are fitted and the bellflower garland would drape across this gap to the hull. Faceting the angel carving to the head timber would alleviate this but not convinced it would look correct.Mmmmmm decisions......
I hope you all have a great trip and that your research deviation is fruitful
Kind Regards
Nigel
Thank you, Nigel. I took a look at the AL stock photography, and it appears their headrails are flat, but the bow angels are fully rounded sculptures as opposed to trompe l’oeil:
I’m in your camp as far as that just seeming wrong. How can such massive timbers be properly secured, if the ends are floating away from the hull at a scale distance of a couple of feet?
Your friend also seems to think the head timbers should conform more closely to the hull:
I’m in your camp as far as that just seeming wrong. How can such massive timbers be properly secured, if the ends are floating away from the hull at a scale distance of a couple of feet?
Your friend also seems to think the head timbers should conform more closely to the hull:
On the research front - The Musee took forever to tell me that nobody would be available to meet with me. I suppose I will check out the archives, although I’m not really sure how that will work. I want to sift through MAR/B/5 and 6, which are the sections devoted to armaments and technology (ships of the times).
That is a little disappointing regards the Musee, at the very least I hope you can take plenty of pictures but I know that wasn’t you goal.
Back to Artesania’s interpretation, the head timbers are fitted flat then the aft section is meant it be pulled in toward the hull and secured by a shaped piece of plywood. This method is not ideal and the curve formed in plan is not so pleasing.The insertion of further aft supports on my model will hopefully give me more control.
Kind Regards
Nigel
Back to Artesania’s interpretation, the head timbers are fitted flat then the aft section is meant it be pulled in toward the hull and secured by a shaped piece of plywood. This method is not ideal and the curve formed in plan is not so pleasing.The insertion of further aft supports on my model will hopefully give me more control.
Kind Regards
Nigel
My visit to the INHA, National Library of France was interesting, if not as directly productive as I had hoped.
One thing that I was able to request and look at in the fantastic oval reading room was Le Chevalier de Tourville, the Boudriot monograph of the proposed 1680 First-Rate L’Ambiteaux. It is an impressively documented project and a beautifully hand-drawn monograph. The plans, in 1:48, give a strong impression of just how large a model one can produce from this set. Even at 1:72, one needs a slipway to launch such a behemoth.
There were a few new plates of interest in the monograph that I hadn’t seen before:
Belle Viue is the same Brest sculptor and draftsman responsible for the following drawing of the highly fascinating Souverain of 1678:
As an added bonus, the following is the best and clearest image I have yet seen of the RL of 1692:
While I was really only skimming the monograph, in the interest of limited time (I had a 3 hour window that I stretched to 4), I will say that I was fascinated by Boudriot’s skepticism of the VdV drawings of La Reyne, with specific regard to the sheer and placement of the artillery. Perhaps this is my personal failing in that I imbue the work of the VdV’s with a degree of photo-realism only paralleled by Puget for these times. All I can say for sure is that I am no expert.
My primary objective for this visit was to see whether there were any catalogued references to the “Gilded Ghost” portrait:
Unfortunately, an image search produced no direct result. Upon walking amongst the stacks, I realized that I happened to be in a room divided between artists both pre and post 1845. And so, I did what I usually do when I visit the STRAND bookstore in NYC; I went in search of my coterie of famous French artists, sculptors and Dutch Master marine artists.
And so, I skimmed through the six books in the stacks for Charles LeBrun, the four for Antoine Coysevox, the six for Puget. There was nothing in the stacks for Van Beecq. Regrettably, I did not think to look for Francois Girardon.
Only the works on Puget made any specific pictorial reference to his work at the arsenal at Toulon; not much there that I hadn’t seen before. But, then I found the three volume Robinson set on the Van de Veldes. Again, if I had more time, I could probably have pulled more, but following are a number of fascinating portraits that help clarify things I couldn’t see clearly before.
For example, this whisper of a portrait:
Appears to have very much in-common with this portrait:
They do not appear to be the same vessel, but perhaps the same type of Second-Rate - that of the “interrupted” third deck (an un-armed and open waist). Other corollaries:
I have never seen the following two before:
The boutielle, below seems out of proportion, but it is nonetheless fascinating:
Here is one of the early Holland-built ships of the 1660’s:
Fantastic detail!
A different perspective and fascinating study of La Royal Therese:
And then, of course, there were quite a number of fascinating studies of famous English ships. SR’s early rival, the Royal Charles:
The London:
A particularly interesting re-fit of the Royal Sovereign:
And, a perhaps conjectural ship:
At least I can say there may be sound artistic precedent for pulling a ship out of thin air!
All interesting to me, and so the journey through Paris and maritime history continues! Dad is having a great time, despite the expected travel exhaustion of his 88 years.
More to follow, and thank you for looking-in.
One thing that I was able to request and look at in the fantastic oval reading room was Le Chevalier de Tourville, the Boudriot monograph of the proposed 1680 First-Rate L’Ambiteaux. It is an impressively documented project and a beautifully hand-drawn monograph. The plans, in 1:48, give a strong impression of just how large a model one can produce from this set. Even at 1:72, one needs a slipway to launch such a behemoth.
There were a few new plates of interest in the monograph that I hadn’t seen before:
Belle Viue is the same Brest sculptor and draftsman responsible for the following drawing of the highly fascinating Souverain of 1678:
As an added bonus, the following is the best and clearest image I have yet seen of the RL of 1692:
While I was really only skimming the monograph, in the interest of limited time (I had a 3 hour window that I stretched to 4), I will say that I was fascinated by Boudriot’s skepticism of the VdV drawings of La Reyne, with specific regard to the sheer and placement of the artillery. Perhaps this is my personal failing in that I imbue the work of the VdV’s with a degree of photo-realism only paralleled by Puget for these times. All I can say for sure is that I am no expert.
My primary objective for this visit was to see whether there were any catalogued references to the “Gilded Ghost” portrait:
Unfortunately, an image search produced no direct result. Upon walking amongst the stacks, I realized that I happened to be in a room divided between artists both pre and post 1845. And so, I did what I usually do when I visit the STRAND bookstore in NYC; I went in search of my coterie of famous French artists, sculptors and Dutch Master marine artists.
And so, I skimmed through the six books in the stacks for Charles LeBrun, the four for Antoine Coysevox, the six for Puget. There was nothing in the stacks for Van Beecq. Regrettably, I did not think to look for Francois Girardon.
Only the works on Puget made any specific pictorial reference to his work at the arsenal at Toulon; not much there that I hadn’t seen before. But, then I found the three volume Robinson set on the Van de Veldes. Again, if I had more time, I could probably have pulled more, but following are a number of fascinating portraits that help clarify things I couldn’t see clearly before.
For example, this whisper of a portrait:
Appears to have very much in-common with this portrait:
They do not appear to be the same vessel, but perhaps the same type of Second-Rate - that of the “interrupted” third deck (an un-armed and open waist). Other corollaries:
I have never seen the following two before:
The boutielle, below seems out of proportion, but it is nonetheless fascinating:
Here is one of the early Holland-built ships of the 1660’s:
Fantastic detail!
A different perspective and fascinating study of La Royal Therese:
And then, of course, there were quite a number of fascinating studies of famous English ships. SR’s early rival, the Royal Charles:
The London:
A particularly interesting re-fit of the Royal Sovereign:
And, a perhaps conjectural ship:
At least I can say there may be sound artistic precedent for pulling a ship out of thin air!
All interesting to me, and so the journey through Paris and maritime history continues! Dad is having a great time, despite the expected travel exhaustion of his 88 years.
More to follow, and thank you for looking-in.
It is a shame you didn't get the answers you wanted but I hope you enjoyed you stay in Paris none the less.
Is Frolich's model of L'Ambiteux on display in the museum?
Kind regards
Nigel
Is Frolich's model of L'Ambiteux on display in the museum?
Kind regards
Nigel
Thank you for sharing Marc.
Funny thing is that I was getting conflicting reports as to whether the Musee was actually open or not. One particularly helpful person at the INHA assured me that it was, but she was actually referring to the Hotel de la Marine at Place de la Concorde. I had a free moment so I walked to Palais de Chaillot. Unfortunately, it is definitively closed until October 2023. I felt better for checking with my own eyes; I would have been so mad to have discovered, after the fact, that it was actually open, or partially open. I certainly would have loved to see Frolich’s model in person. l would even go so far as to say more-so than Tanneron’s SR, which is so thoroughly documented.
In any case, I have a letter writing campaign ahead of me to see what I might learn from the other Musee arsenal locations, as well as the museum at Tatihou.
That's ironic, shut throughout the tourist season but reopening for ...err.. Winter...
I guess it is this book?
The Willem van de Velde drawings in the Boymans-van Beuningen Museum
MUSEUM BOYMANS-VAN BEUNINGEN Foundation Rotterdam (1. Januar 1979)
Book review - Book Review: "The Willem van de Velde drawings in the Boymans-van Beuningen Museum" - 3 Volume Box
Book Review: The Willem van de Velde drawings in the Boymans-van Beuningen Museum MUSEUM BOYMANS-VAN BEUNINGEN Foundation Rotterdam (1. Januar 1979) Box / Slipcase with 3 Volumes in English One Textvolume with 187 Pages and two Volumes with plates with 357 pages (historic events) and 335...
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