Vasa - 1:65 DeAgostini [COMPLETED BUILD]

Hi Paul. As I also intend to fit some furled sails on my BN, I am following your effort with great interest. Certainly the attempts for the realistic look. The 1st sail was promising. The 2nd less. The problem with only applying a partial sail is which parts of the stitching you then apply. And what can be seen of that. I look forward to the sequel with interest.
Regards, Peter
 
Paul,
Having done just a few furled sails myself, I became aware of the fact that making furled sails is not any easier than making full sails, if anything, it's way trickier than a normal set sail.
I'm afraid I didn't find a standard recipe for furled sails either. There are variables at play which make that in my humble opinion pretty hard to accomplish: the material you use, the size of the sails, the type of the sail, square or lateen, how tight you fasten the ropes and most important how you want it to look, formal or informal or anything in between. Personally I wouldn't opt for the very neat furling as shown by @Heinrich In post #3575, but instead for a slightly less formal, more "natural" look.
Johan
 
Last edited:
Heinrich said:
Dear Paul. If I may be so bold as to make an observation. You have built a perfect VASA up to now - by perfect I mean it is executed to perfection without one hair out of place. If you want to keep your furled sails in line with the character of the rest of your build, they also have to be executed "super-neatly". A furl that is too "informal" and shows too many creases and crinkles will not work. Have a look at @pietsan Piet Sanders's furling on the WB. yes, I know it is two completely different ships, but that's not the point - I just wanted to show you the TYPE of furling which I believe will be right at home on your VASA.

View attachment 329074
Click to expand...
Hello Heinrich,

First of all, I am so pleased that you shared your observation. Being asked to rethink choices is something I am very comfortable with.

My goal has always been precision not perfection, and I think that's consistent with what you are communicating (without one hair out of place). I certainly never intended to build a 'ridden hard and put away wet' ship that comes across as a well-worn working vessel. Indeed, my vision has been heavily shaped by the appearance of the 1:10 model at the Vasamuseet. If you are familiar with that model, you will notice some striking similarities in tone of wood and colorization. This is not coincidental. Of course, there are other ways to build the Vasa as our friends Peter and Daniel have demonstrated so impressively. Truly there are aspects of each of their builds that I like better than my own rendition.

So now turning to your suggestion: while I can only dream of working at the level Piet works at - artistically speaking - the sails on his ship are more about perfection than about precision. What I mean by that is they are TOO good. I can't imagine a sailor hanging over a yardarm furling a sail that nicely. In other words, his sails are perfect - but not really precise. Of course, I mean no disrespect as this was clearly an artistic choice that Piet made - he is more than skilled enough to make his sails look any way he wanted them to. I am simply shooting at a different target (and doing so without Piet's skill or experience).

I hope that makes sense???
 
Last edited:
NMBROOK said:
Really do agree with Heinrich on this one Paul. The standard of the rest of your model has set the bar so incredibly high for a first build, time to take a deep breath and persevere.

May I suggest you remake one of the smaller sails (least work) one third of the normal height and try that.

Just a thought

Kind Regards

Nigel
Click to expand...
Thanks Nigel. Yes, making a sail 1/3rd (1/2?) the normal height is my plan for now. I think I'll experiment with some scrap fabric though - it's no small undertaking to cut down and remake a completed and rigged sail...

Note to future model builders: don't make 10 of something that requires three months of effort without 'testing' the first version...
 
DARIVS ARCHITECTVS said:
One of the drawbacks to using cloth at this scale is its inability to make fine, scale folds. It wants to spring back out flat when folded. Reducing the sail size to about 1/3 eliminates the oversized appearance of a furled sail, but to me that's just the first step.

Come up with a method to make finer folds and pleats. Perhaps using long thin sewing pins, and temporarily binding the cloth with loops of thread where it is going to be bunched together under the lashings. Wet the sail with fabric starch and dry it with a hair dryer, then lashed the sail to the yard. Once lashed to the yard, snip and remove the temporary binding threads, leaving the lashing to hold the bunched fabric tight.

Play around with some scrap fabric. Have fun with it. Your sails will improve dramatically, and in the end, you will be happy with them.
Click to expand...
Yes. More experimenting is needed (and where I went wrong). But I am not aware of sails being neatly folded (pleated) when they were furled. At least that's not what I think I am supposed to be representing??? I hate not knowing what I am doing!
 
Jack Jäger said:
Hi Paul, I can see why you are using cloth and respect your choice, but I just wondered did you look at all at making the sails with silkspan?

As always, every time I look at your thread I admire your work, cheers JJ.
Click to expand...
I did Jack but I came to certain conclusions about sails fabricated from silkspan that I have since learned were wrong. Anyway, if I ever do sails in the future (doubtful at this point) I will certainly give silkspan a go.
 
RDN1954 said:
Paul,
Having done just a few furled sails myself, I became aware of the fact that making furled sails is not any easier than making full sails, if anything, it's way trickier than a normal set sail.
I'm afraid I didn't find a standard recipe for furled sails either. There are variables at play which make that it in my humble opinion pretty hard to Accomplish: the material you use, the size of the sails, the type of the sail, square or lateen, how tight you fasten the ropes and most important how you want it to look, formal or informal or anything in between. Personally I wouldn't opt for the very neat furling as shown by @Heinrich In post #3575, but instead for a slightly less formal, more "natural" look.
Johan
Click to expand...
I would affirm everything you posted here Johan. I had it in my head to show some sails fully open, some sails with a loose furl, and some furled more completely. I wasn't ecstatic about my sprit sail but neither was I disappointed. But now the failed sprit topmast sail demonstrates that I didn't have a good recipe either...
 
Peter Voogt said:
Hi Paul. As I also intend to fit some furled sails on my BN, I am following your effort with great interest. Certainly the attempts for the realistic look. The 1st sail was promising. The 2nd less. The problem with only applying a partial sail is which parts of the stitching you then apply. And what can be seen of that. I look forward to the sequel with interest.
Regards, Peter
Click to expand...
You understand the situation perfectly Peter. For example, I left off bunt lines on the sails I intended to fully furl, but I still rigged the clew normally because it would be seen. I chose to include a full bolt rope (on all sails including the ones being fully furled) but that has now added bulk which is unhelpful. At the end of the day though the real problem is too much fabric (I needed to shorten the fully furled sails much more than I did).

Keep an eye on @Steef66 - he is experimenting with silkspan (or something similar).
 
dockattner said:
Yes. More experimenting is needed (and where I went wrong). But I am not aware of sails being neatly folded (pleated) when they were furled. At least that's not what I think I am supposed to be representing??? I hate not knowing what I am doing!
Click to expand...
No, not neatly pleated, but you are simulating a gossamer fine fabric in a very small model, and folds which on a model appear like small wrinkles are large folds on the full sized ship. As far as not knowing what you are doing, we all share that, and we learn by doing. Like I said, take some cloth, and PLAY WITH IT using different techniques until you find one that YOU LIKE. No matter what you do, it will be great. Look at what you've done so far! Have faith.
 
Hi Paul did you try to furl the sail while being wet. Making the fabric wet makes it more flexible to shape it. Like Kurt mentioned you can keep it in shape afterwards with starch.
 
dockattner said:
Keep an eye on @Steef66 - he is experimenting with silkspan (or something similar).
Click to expand...
@Peter Voogt
I tried with Filmoplast and Voile Cotton.
www.textielstad.nl

Cotton voile gebroken wit

100% fijne katoenen voile. Deze stof is een van onze nieuwe basis kwaliteiten. Geschikt voor kleding en interieur. TIP: Deze stof kan ook al lekker zomerse en natuurlijke voering worden gebruikt.
www.textielstad.nl www.textielstad.nl
The cotton alone is very thin. Ab Hoving is using something that seems to be better. But more expensive to get. You need to look in his logo.
I also see on the Dutch forum by member Pauwels that he is using the White paper that come with new shoes in the boxes. You have to see the buildlog to find out how he is doing it.

I so experience with filmoplast, see my log. But I did it with cotton, what was no succes. I gonna try again with silk. But for a big ship this method is no succes I think. But a small ship like that of Peter could be perfect. Maybe combine with the paper. I will try soon
 
dockattner said:
Hello Heinrich,

First of all, I am so pleased that you shared your observation. Being asked to rethink choices made is something I am very comfortable with.

My goal has always been precision not perfection, and I think that's consistent with what you are communicating (without one hair out of place). I certainly never intended to build a 'ridden hard and put away wet' ship that comes across as a well-worn working vessel. Indeed, my vision has been heavily shaped by the appearance of the 1:10 model at the Vasamuseet. If you are familiar with that model, you will notice some striking similarities in tone of wood and colorization. This is not coincidental. Of course, there are other ways to build the Vasa as our friends Peter and Daniel have demonstrated so impressively. Truly there are aspects of each of their builds that I like better than my own rendition.

So now turning to your suggestion: while I can only dream of working at the level Piet works at - artistically speaking - the sails on his ship are more about perfection than about precision. What I mean by that is they are TOO good. I can't imagine a sailor hanging over a yardarm furling a sail that nicely. In other words, his sails are perfect - but not really precise. Of course, I mean no disrespect as this was clearly an artistic choice that Piet made - he is more than skilled enough to make his sails look any way he wanted them to. I am simply shooting at a different target (and doing so without Piet's skill or experience).

I hope that makes sense???
Click to expand...
My friend, I understand perfectly well what you say, and I have the greatest respect for that. I think we are very much on the same wavelength as to knowing what the other party wants to achieve with his build. I was suggesting that one person is better in building in a certain way than another. A "sloppily" painted waterline on Dutch ships was precise in the sense that it was historically correct, but I suck at that. I can only paint a neat and straight waterline. My line of thinking was that doing a perfect furling may be more in line with your character and the way that you build, rather than a sloppy - albeit historically correct (read precise) furling.

Boy did I struggle to phrase this piece of writing! ROTF
 
dockattner said:
Thanks Nigel. Yes, making a sail 1/3rd (1/2?) the normal height is my plan for now. I think I'll experiment with some scrap fabric though - it's no small undertaking to cut down and remake a completed and rigged sail...

Note to future model builders: don't make 10 of something that requires three months of effort without 'testing' the first version...
Click to expand...
True story- excellent tip Paul
 
Steef66 said:
Maybe look here for some better samples of furled sails.
Thread 'Cut and paste - free downloadable e-book showing my production over the last 5 years' https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/...ng-my-production-over-the-last-5-years.10394/
Click to expand...
Thanks Stephan. I have many of Ab's finish photos saved and I use them regularly for reference. He has accomplished exactly what I am trying to achieve. Indeed, one of those ships is presented using the exact same fabric I am using - but having Ab's fabric is a lot different than having Ab's skills.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top