H.M.S. Victory by Caldercraft - Build Log

[AllanKP69]

Did you use clove hitches for your ratlines? They look rather small for those. Very neat though.

Funny thing is that I thought they looked huge.

Re-rigging the ratlines would keep me awake at night, but perhaps for the future or others building her:
For HMS Victory from the formulas in James Lees' The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War.........

238/2=119" mast length
119/3=39.6" mast diameter
39.6/2=19.8" Main stay circumference
19.8X0.6=11.9" Shroud circumference
11.9/3.14 = 3.787" diameter of the main mast shrouds (1.3mm at 1:72)

Ratlines - always just under about 1/2" diameter ---> 0,5/72 X 25.4 = 0.17mm at 1:72

I have no idea if the shrouds in the kit are the correct size, but the ratlines would be about 0.13 X the diameter of the shrouds. Scaling your photo, the ratlines look to be about 0.35 the diameter of the shrouds, or nearly three times too large. If they were closer to scale, the knots would be smaller.

Allan

In the photo below the contrast in size is pretty clear.

 

[team118]

Funny thing is that I thought they looked huge.

Re-rigging the ratlines would keep me awake at night, but perhaps for the future or others building her:
For HMS Victory from the formulas in James Lees' The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War.........

238/2=119" mast length
119/3=39.6" mast diameter
39.6/2=19.8" Main stay circumference
19.8X0.6=11.9" Shroud circumference
11.9/3.14 = 3.787" diameter of the main mast shrouds (1.3mm at 1:72)

Ratlines - always just under about 1/2" diameter ---> 0,5/72 X 25.4 = 0.17mm at 1:72

I have no idea if the shrouds in the kit are the correct size, but the ratlines would be about 0.13 X the diameter of the shrouds. Scaling your photo, the ratlines look to be about 0.35 the diameter of the shrouds, or nearly three times too large. If they were closer to scale, the knots would be smaller.

Allan

In the photo below the contrast in size is pretty clear.

Allan
I agree that the lines are probably way too big. I believe that I used the .1mm natural thread as called for in the plans. Course, now you got me thinking and I'm too lazy to go down stairs! ....lol, I did go down and check!

They are .1mm, and that would convert to about 7.2mm scale wise? Or about 1/4" in US measurements...and yes all of the shrouds are 1.3mm with the #1's all served, so they're a bit thicker.

They do look big and perhaps because my knot tying wasn't as tight as it should be. They should have been synched down more?

I did hold some thread in front of it and it's the same.

We'll just have to squint when we look closely!!!!

 

[team118]

Lovely work as usual, thanks for posting. Can you explain the 2 part strop thing? As a Newby I've wondered more than once the proper way to rig this bit. (I really must buy the Longridge book!)

I can sure try!!!!

So most definitely, there are a few books that have helped me immensely!
Neplean Longridge's The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships.
It includes a bunch of hand drawings and some fold out inserts....be sure if you get it, that it includes those!
I think I paid about $50USD for a used book
It is a model builder's dream. In my mind, if you have the skills, tools and understanding of ship building, you could actually build your own Victory from scratch, it's that detailed.

Alan McGowan's Her Construction, Career and Restoration.
It too is expensive at around $100USD
It has a lot of pictures of the ship in various stages of rehab and repair.
It excels in the back with many isometric pictures of all of the rigging, sails, masts, yards and more!

John McKay's The 100 Gun Ship Victory
Again, about $100USD used.
This has VERY detailed running and rigging diagrams, an actual numbered list of each of the lines....should you want to memorize each line for that quiz you know you'll get when someone comes to look at your finished model and asks...."Do you know each of the lines?" and you respond, OF COURSE and they begin to point at the shifting breast stay for the mizzen mast and demand to know what it's called!!!!!

Longridge has a good diagrams of the 2-part strop/sling for the main yards for the 3 masts. My sense is the strop/sling actually holds the yard in place and the various larger blocks would have the ability to raise or lower the whole yard if needed. The only for the main yard or course is that you'd have to cut the lashing to allow this. I am sure there are those that have a better idea of that.

So the instructions just call for a continuous loop that would be tied around the middle of the yard and then 'hung' to the mast cap. They ask that you add 2 knots to simulate the thimbles.

You can see the sling here. It is between the two pairs of triple/double jeer blocks that do the actually lifting of the yard.
The bottom end has a thimble on it. The upper sling is hung over the cap, the bottom also has a thimble and it is finished with 2 rings that are secured together ( can see that on the side just below the mast cap)

So now you would have those 2 thimbles and lash them together with .1 or .25mm natural thread.

Then you would secure the jeer blocks to the sides of the mast per the instructions.

​

These are some pictures of other builders use of the slings with thimbles





Hope I said all that right!!!!!!

 

[team118]

What an afternoon! I spent 6 hours working on the fore yard, finishing up all the things I missed.

First off though....why all of a sudden are all my pictures that I'm uploading on their side. I am forced to open each picture, edit it and resave it.
This just started.....

So one down, ten or so to go!!!!

I relied HEAVILY on Longridge's diagrams and my database of other builds.

I created the upper sling for the yard. Now Longridge has the eyes of the sling tied together, but that would be a lot of work because my mast is already in place. If I had built these before the upper and top gallant masts had been installed, I could have done it that way. As it was I created the little mini eyes for the sling and then lashed them together with black thread.



You can see here that I lashed to the two eyelets together with black thread rather than creating one eyelet and then running the other one through it...



After that, it was just slow work adding the double jeers to the yard, then the triple jeers off the mast. I did use the wrong size lashing for those jeers, it should have been 1mm natural. By the time I realized it, I had committed to the smaller diameter and didn't want to remove my work and possible damage things.


Getting the jeers lashed and then run down to the deck was tough with all of the other standing rigging in the way, especially with my fat shakey fingers. I also tried to create coils and I am going to have to circle back to some of the videos around because I'm not happy so far with my work there.

The next thing was adding the truss pendants. At first I didn't understand what the directions were saying. Not even a little bit. But there is a reference in Longridge and a diagram of how they are made and lashed to the yard around the back of the mast. After looking at that, I did notice on the blueprints there is a similar diagram with the rigging down to the deck. Then it made sense.



Not that that matters because this is a task that would be WAY easier without all of the stays in place. Also, I should have installed them BEFORE I did any of the slings or jeers. That would have helped too. As it was, I was forced to create these truss pendants, tie them to an already shipped yard, wrap them around the back of the mast, bring the bitter ends down to the deck, attach blocks to the eyelets and the ends of the pendants, lash those together and then secure them to the teeny tiny cleats at the base of the mast.

Well I'll know what to do with the main!!!!

 

[Mike Dowling]

Well I think that your ratlines look amazing regardless of scale, so there !!!

 

[team118]

Well I think that your ratlines look amazing regardless of scale, so there !!!

Lol....thank you Mike!!!!

 

[Bluebear26]

I can sure try!!!!

So most definitely, there are a few books that have helped me immensely!
Neplean Longridge's The Anatomy of Nelson's Ships.
It includes a bunch of hand drawings and some fold out inserts....be sure if you get it, that it includes those!
I think I paid about $50USD for a used book
It is a model builder's dream. In my mind, if you have the skills, tools and understanding of ship building, you could actually build your own Victory from scratch, it's that detailed.

Alan McGowan's Her Construction, Career and Restoration.
It too is expensive at around $100USD
It has a lot of pictures of the ship in various stages of rehab and repair.
It excels in the back with many isometric pictures of all of the rigging, sails, masts, yards and more!

John McKay's The 100 Gun Ship Victory
Again, about $100USD used.
This has VERY detailed running and rigging diagrams, an actual numbered list of each of the lines....should you want to memorize each line for that quiz you know you'll get when someone comes to look at your finished model and asks...."Do you know each of the lines?" and you respond, OF COURSE and they begin to point at the shifting breast stay for the mizzen mast and demand to know what it's called!!!!!

Longridge has a good diagrams of the 2-part strop/sling for the main yards for the 3 masts. My sense is the strop/sling actually holds the yard in place and the various larger blocks would have the ability to raise or lower the whole yard if needed. The only for the main yard or course is that you'd have to cut the lashing to allow this. I am sure there are those that have a better idea of that.

So the instructions just call for a continuous loop that would be tied around the middle of the yard and then 'hung' to the mast cap. They ask that you add 2 knots to simulate the thimbles.

You can see the sling here. It is between the two pairs of triple/double jeer blocks that do the actually lifting of the yard.
The bottom end has a thimble on it. The upper sling is hung over the cap, the bottom also has a thimble and it is finished with 2 rings that are secured together ( can see that on the side just below the mast cap)

So now you would have those 2 thimbles and lash them together with .1 or .25mm natural thread.

Then you would secure the jeer blocks to the sides of the mast per the instructions.
View attachment 568865

​

These are some pictures of other builders use of the slings with thimbles
View attachment 568868View attachment 568869

View attachment 568870View attachment 568871
View attachment 568867

Hope I said all that right!!!!!!

View attachment 568866

Fantastic explanation. Thankyou!!

 

[jerry_s]

I can't say strongly enough how impressed I am with these details and workmanship!

Did you work in other wood based hobbies prior? For example, I like to make jewelry boxes, so while I have woodworking experience, I dont know how well it transfers over.

I'll have to check out those books as I wanted to try this build somewhere down the line

 

[team118]

I can't say strongly enough how impressed I am with these details and workmanship!

Did you work in other wood based hobbies prior? For example, I like to make jewelry boxes, so while I have woodworking experience, I dont know how well it transfers over.

I'll have to check out those books as I wanted to try this build somewhere down the line

Hi Jerry;
Appreciate the comments!

I do have experience with wood, not at the detail of wooden models, but I know the right end of a hammer.
I also built Trumpeter's Titanic a few years ago. It was pretty difficult and I WAAAYYY overspent on add-ons, but it turned out fairly nice.

I worked as a carpenter when I was part-time at UPS 40 years ago and things like building a shed from scratch and a bar in my basement have helped me keep what skills I have current.

I think anyone who isn't afraid to dig in and is comfortable working with wood at any scale can sit down and tackle a wooden ship model in this day and age. I remember trying to do a wooden Cutty Sark model when I was 10 or 11 and quit. As I recall, the hull was a rectangle piece of wood that had to be shaped into a hull, all the other wooden pieces were just printed on wood and required you to cut out, sand and shape and the directions were in Chinese or Japanese (I think back in the early 70's it would have been Japanese). In this day and age, web pages, YouTube and more make building complex models a lot easier.

Certainly not for everyone, but I think anyone who has the time, space and desire any level of model is doable. The end result is a matter of tolerance.

As you can see....I have HIGH tolerances!!!!

Chris

 

[GrantTyler]

Good morning Chris. Fabulous !!! She is turning into an impressive beauty. Cheers Grant

 

[AllanKP69]

a bar in my basement

Do NOT give out your address. If you do I WILL show up unannounced some day.
Allan

 

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Do NOT give out your address. If you do I WILL show up unannounced some day.
Allan

You better listen. HE'LL DO IT.

 

[team118]

Earlier I had stopped work on the boat to concentrate on make the yards. As posted, it is a very labor intensive, high learning curve task.
Using my drill to help sand and shape the yards, adding the additional planking to create the octagonal shapes, the supports for the horses, cleats, blocks and more.



I thought I was done but realize in the steps after doing all of the standing rigging (fore and back stays, etc) there are more blocks and jeers than have to be added that help manipulate the yards once they are rigged to the mast.

All of these blocks are associated with running rigging that would used to adjust sail angles when sailing.

Getting the yards ready is VERY labor intensive. There are so many new blocks that need to be added, you have to create the parrels for the upper yards so they can slide up and down the mast and rig all of this while the standing rigging and shrouds are IN THE WAY!!!!

I had finished (as best as I can) the fore main yard and began working on the foretop mast yard (the next in line).
The instructions can be very daunting and I relied heavily on Longridge's diagrams to get an idea of what I need to do.

I also ran out of nice quality 7mm single blocks and was forced to use the clunky square kit ones. I have more on order from Dry Docks. Sadly as a US citizen (NOT in favor of much of our current administration's actions) I was forced to pay duty for the first time. It was only about $10USD on a $50 order and it is what it is, but a sign of the times!

It took a while to sort out just how to rig the slings to the trestle trees, the blocks on the yard and the blocks that secure the tyes to the deck.
I was forced to lay out three different sets of blueprints to get an idea of what was what.

You also have to use the kit's cast pieces for the 'trucks'. These are just tubes that allow the tye to slide up and down using a backstay to hold the truck secure. The problem is I didn't put the trucks in place while installing the backstays. In fact looking at the instructions, there is no mention to do that.
The problem is the cast trucks are round tubes and way too small to cut a slot into them so you can fit lines through them. Also....I lost all but 2 of them!

I had teflon tubing but it was too wide. I ended up using some small brass tubing. It is easy to roll cut with an exacto knife. Then I held it in place with tweezers as I used the knife to saw a slot into it. Once I did that (BE VERY CAREFUL THE KNIFE DOESN'T SLIP AND CUT YOU) I was able to add the trucks to the backstay. I will add some artificial black thread after to make it look like it's tied to the back stay and paint it black



The tyes are natural thread.


In essence:

• The tye of .75mm natural thread is tied off on the foremast trestletree.
• It goes down to the double block on the yard
• If goes back up to the other side to the single block
• It goes through the truck down to the deck

Now, be sure that when you do both that you keep them sorted and clean. I had to redo them a few times so that they weren't tangled up with each other or the other shrouds or backstays. You'll understand that as you do it.

Once done, you have to add a double block to the end of the tye. This would be around the height of the platform...you can kind of see that in the picture above.

You then make a single block with a black thread to tie to the open eyelet on the channel.



The picture is a bit muddle with all of the rigging. There is an eyelet on the very end. There is a black thread that leads up to a double block....yes, it is supposed to be a single block, I realized it was wrong after I had attached it to the eyelet and was rigging the lashing so I decided to leave it in place. This block also has to have the lashing attached to the end to secure this block to the block at the end of the tye.

When that is all rigged (again, be careful all the lashings are neat and not crossed or tangled), the bitter end will be secured to one of the kevels, listed as b18 on the plans.


Another flaw in the build, these kevels are glued flatly to the side walls of the deck. There is no space to tie off this line.
So either I did it wrong or I should have sanded the kevel so that there was a space all around it. I was forced to drill a hole from either side to get the line through. That was very hard due to all the other rigging in the way.

After, I made up some coils to glue in front of my work!

Whew!!! That was a lot of work but was actually very rewarding. I mean I still have seven more to go!

 

[TOC423]

I am trying to catch up on your log (page 8 now) and enjoying it very much! I am another one building Caldercraft's HMS Victory. In a past career I was a cabinet maker for about 25 years. I am at the methodically slow go coppering stage now.
If I were to come over I would bring you some fine bourbon for your collection. I am not that far, Albany NY area