LE ROCHEFORT

THANKS TO NIGEL AND GILLES WITHOUT YOUR HELP I WOULD HAVE ABONDED THIS BUILD WITH YOUR HELP I CAN CONTINUE, AFTER SO MANY YEARS FINALLY LEARNING HOW TO MAKE FRAMES, I AM RE=DOING SOME FRAMES 4 OF THEM RIGHT NOW I AM LEAVING THE FIRST 4 FRAMES ALONE UNTIL I FINISH ALL THE RE-DOES THEN HOPE I C20200108_224148.jpg20200108_224335.jpg20200108_232640.jpgAN UNDERSTAND WHAT TO DO, I sure hope I am not being a PIA if so please tell me, the pictures are of frame No.6 showing the markings of the edges and leaving a little meat on both sides, an the next set of patterens i will leave the black line visable, again THANKS SO MUCH APPRECIATED
 

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Looking at the last images, make sure you sand the joint line to the edge or you will not be able to properly line up your frame to the pattern. It looks like you will end up with the thickness of the lines as extra length for each joint in the frame. Depending on the number of timbers / joints needed to build each frame, you may end up with several millimeters in extra length.
It does not have to be perfect but being as close as possible helps. There is a cumulative effect and this may be why you are having trouble matching the frame to the pattern.
Again, I would also drop the use of pins: it seems very confusing to me + it adds another step that does not add precision.

20200108_232640.jpg

Actually, the joint marked as "better" may not even be a joint on this face of the frame: it is probably a joint line for the upper layer of the frame. This said, your joint should look as tight (as close as possible) as that simple line.

G.
 
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Hi GILLES, if I understand what you are saying is to sand the individual futtocks to the line, and not leave any meat, that would be no problem at all, at this point i have a couple of questions should i do all of the frames that i have done be sanded like that to the line witch from now on i will be cutting the pattern as you and NIGEL sugested the other question that i have i will leave until i do the stern side for the coupled frame, AGAIN I THANK YOU VERY MUCH, and I strongly suggest everyone doing a POF FRENCH BUILD DOWNLOAD THE THE SO VALUBLE PRACTORIUM ON THE GROS VENTURE IT IS INDISPESIBLE INFORMATION. THANKS Don
 
Don,
My last post and image above only relate to the straight Joint lines (joints between futtocks and floor-timber represented by"cross-lines"): these should be precisely sanded flush to the line and at the right angle for optimal fit when assembling all the frame parts together to complete each frame.

As for the other lines:

For each individual part: Around the long Edges of the parts (the curved lines or "longitudinal" lines) you should leave maybe 2 mm extra.
Once all the parts are cut for a particular frame, sand the straight joint lines as described above (flush to the line) and assemble the frame.

Once the frame has been assembled, you can use your Dremel sanding station to sand down the curved edges of your frame (again this is the assembled frame) closer to the line (1/2 or 1 mm)

Please see the image below with the numbered captions showing and describing all this in detail.
All the arrows may make all this confusing but if you follow each arrow from text to what it shows in the photo, all should make sense.

Study this slowly caption by caption.


page 81.jpg

Again Take your time.
The time you spend thinking and studying the process is time and material saved when you build.


G

PS: To better see the image and caption, you need to open it full screen: just click on the photo to see it full size.
 
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This is the frame assembly.
You should be able to clearly see that there is a little extra meat left around the frame before assembly.
No caption on this one as the process is quite straight forward.

Once the frame is cured (glue is dry) then the contour edge can be squared... but still leaving about .5mm or even 1mm meat around.
At this point the only thing cut to the line may be the notch or notches at the foot of the frame so that you can test fit the frame onto the keel.

page 82.jpg

G
 
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I do not have a full size copy of the images shown above.........
.........But I should be able to build a frame in the next few of days.
When I do, I will document the process step by step and post larger images and text describing how I do it.

To make it easier, it will be a mid-ship frame with no bevel: which is really what you should do to get practice.
Then work your way towards the front and back of the ship where bevel lines make it more confusing.

G
 
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Don,
My last post and image above only relate to the straight Joint lines (joints between futtocks and floor-timber represented by"cross-lines"): these should be precisely sanded flush to the line and at the right angle for optimal fit when assembling all the frame parts together to complete each frame.

As for the other lines:

For each individual part: Around the long Edges of the parts (the curved lines or "longitudinal" lines) you should leave maybe 2 mm extra.
Once all the parts are cut for a particular frame, sand the straight joint lines as described above (flush to the line) and assemble the frame.

Once the frame has been assembled, you can use your Dremel sanding station to sand down the curved edges of your frame (again this is the assembled frame) closer to the line (1/2 or 1 mm)

Please see the image below with the numbered captions showing and describing all this in detail.
All the arrows may make all this confusing but if you follow each arrow from text to what it shows in the photo, all should make sense.

Study this slowly caption by caption.


View attachment 127691

Again Take your time.
The time you spend thinking and studying the process is time and material saved when you build.


G

PS: To better see the image and caption, you need to open it full screen: just click on the photo to see it full size.
Gilles, many thanks for this help and detailed explanations - and we can see how helpful your "old" documentation of your group built can be.
 
Hallo Don,
maybe interesting also for you, although it is in moment only available in spanish, but maybe in some time also in other languages:
 
Gilles, many thanks for this help and detailed explanations - and we can see how helpful your "old" documentation of your group built can be.

Thank you Uwe.
One day, I may be able to complete the work I started all these years ago and put something together based on part of the original idea.... although, the subject would end up being a smaller generic (or non specific) ship. I have been thinking about it for a while now and work may have already started.......
G
 
Don,

Important note.
The set of plans you are using includes all the information needed to build a complete 2-layer frame.
My set of plan does not so I took some liberties in tracing and labeling a simplified version of those (smaller number of parts) to fit my purpose.
But in the end, the step-by-step technique I use to build each frame is the same. This technique is the one I chose to use. It is most certainly not a better technique as each modeler may proceed with some differences.

Now… on with the description…
Building a 2-layer full Frame: mid-ship frame with no bevel which can also be referred to as a “square edged frame”.

Please note that building a frame closer to the front or the back of the ship is very similar, although a bit more confusing because of the addition of bevel lines both on the inside as well as the outside of each frame. None the less, the technique is the same, it is just a matter of getting used to having the extra lines. This is the reason why, I normally suggest starting with the mid-ship frames: no bevel or a bevel that is so minimal that most of the time one could or should not bother cutting that bevel. These bevels are so slight that one can easily take care of them as the framing is sanded on the inside and outside the hull.


For the purpose of this demonstration, this frame is composed of 7 parts / pieces representing the 2-layer frame.
Whether your set of plans contains the full information including the outline of each part (ie: all futtocks, floor-timbers, crotches, etc) or the parts are drawn at your discretion, all this makes no difference. The parts are contained and labeled within the full pattern used for the construction. All parts of each frame may or may not already be labeled on the plans used. If not, it is simple enough to allocate a number, letter or combination of both to identify each part so that parts for each layer can be separated in whatever way makes sense to the individual builder. The frame is being built in 2 layers. Following a plan set showing all information the patterns may show the 2 layers indicated by solid and doted joint lines. The solid lines representing the forward layer (face) of the frame, the doted line representing the back layer (face) of your frame.


In this (my) case, again, because my set of plans does not show this information, I am including 1 image showing the full pattern and 2 more images braking down the different layers: RED = forward / front face, GREEN = back face

Full pattern of one single, 2 layer frame. Fig 1
Because I worked out the location of each joint for my own purpose (and to mention “not following what would be historically correct”), I did not use solid and doted lines to identify the joint of parts according to which layer they belong to. The composition of the frame has been simplified by reducing the number of part / futtocks.

_DSC0599 a.jpg


Forward facing frame layer: Fig 2

_DSC0599 b.jpg


Back frame layer: Fig 3

_DSC0599 c.jpg

________________________________________________________________________________


Frame construction part one
Tracing the pattern to wood.

Some builders will print copies of the overall frame, then cut out each part and glue these pattern to the sheet of wood used.
In my case, I like to take the full pattern and transfer each part using tracing paper.
Whatever way is used make not much of a difference as it really is a matter of preference. Both way have “pros and cons”.

Patterns transferred to the wood: Fig 4

_DSC0604 a.jpg

So the image shown above shows the patterns transferred to the wood, trying to have the length of the pieces running along with the wood grain. In this case, because I simplified the composition of the frame with a lower number of parts, some of the futtocks are much longer than they should be, had the frame been broken down according to period practices, it was difficult to have the length of the parts follow the wood grain: shorter parts work better. As indicated earlier, this frame is composed of 7 pieces: 3 for the front layer and 4 for the back layer. Parts / pieces have been identified as was done in the 2 previous images.

Once again, the breakdown of the frame is not historically correct. The frame could have been broken down into more pieces, but in the end it makes no difference as far as the actual technique is concerned.


Frame construction part two
Cutting the different elements composing the frame.

Again, to each his or her own, I my case, the tool of choice is a coping-saw.

One will note that the contour of each piece was done leaving between 1 and 2 millimeters extra material all around.

Fig 5
_DSC0614 a.jpg

The image below is a view of the parts forming the 2 layers.
The 3 pieces at the bottom are the parts needed for the forward face of the frame. The parts are labeled F1, F2 and F3 as was done for the image shown as Fig 2.
The 4 pieces above are the parts needed for the back face of the frame. The parts are B1, B2, B3 and B4 as labeled in Fig 3.

Fig 6

_DSC0615 a.jpg


At this point, the frames parts can be bundled and set-aside until frame assembly.

I should also note that working on several frames at the same time saves lumber as similar pieces can be traced or laid next to each other: this is relative to the shape of the pieces as well as length, etc…… Then cut and sorted out as long as each piece has been identified with frame and part number.


Next, I will document the following steps in the construction of a frame:

Getting the parts ready for assembly, then assembly, then fairing or squaring the edges.
 
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Don,

Important note.
The set of plans you are using includes all the information needed to build a complete 2-layer frame.
My set of plan does not so I took some liberties in tracing and labeling a simplified version of those (smaller number of parts) to fit my purpose.
But in the end, the step-by-step technique I use to build each frame is the same. This technique is the one I chose to use. It is most certainly not a better technique as each modeler may proceed with some differences.

Now… on with the description…
Building a 2-layer full Frame: mid-ship frame with no bevel which can also be referred to as a “square edged frame”.

Please note that building a frame closer to the front or the back of the ship is very similar, although a bit more confusing because of the addition of bevel lines both on the inside as well as the outside of each frame. None the less, the technique is the same, it is just a matter of getting used to having the extra lines. This is the reason why, I normally suggest starting with the mid-ship frames: no bevel or a bevel that is so minimal that most of the time one could or should not bother cutting that bevel. These bevels are so slight that one can easily take care of them as the framing is sanded on the inside and outside the hull.


For the purpose of this demonstration, this frame is composed of 7 parts / pieces representing the 2-layer frame.
Whether your set of plans contains the full information including the outline of each part (ie: all futtocks, floor-timbers, crotches, etc) or the parts are drawn at your discretion, all this makes no difference. The parts are contained and labeled within the full pattern used for the construction. All parts of each frame may or may not already be labeled on the plans used. If not, it is simple enough to allocate a number, letter or combination of both to identify each part so that parts for each layer can be separated in whatever way makes sense to the individual builder. The frame is being built in 2 layers. Following a plan set showing all information the patterns may show the 2 layers indicated by solid and doted joint lines. The solid lines representing the forward layer (face) of the frame, the doted line representing the back layer (face) of your frame.


In this (my) case, again, because my set of plans does not show this information, I am including 1 image showing the full pattern and 2 more images braking down the different layers: RED = forward / front face, GREEN = back face

Full pattern of one single, 2 layer frame. Fig 1
Because I worked out the location of each joint for my own purpose (and to mention “not following what would be historically correct”), I did not use solid and doted lines to identify the joint of parts according to which layer they belong to. The composition of the frame has been simplified by reducing the number of part / futtocks.

View attachment 127762


Forward facing frame layer: Fig 2

View attachment 127765


Back frame layer: Fig 3

View attachment 127766

________________________________________________________________________________


Frame construction part one
Tracing the pattern to wood.

Some builders will print copies of the overall frame, then cut out each part and glue these pattern to the sheet of wood used.
In my case, I like to take the full pattern and transfer each part using tracing paper.
Whatever way is used make not much of a difference as it really is a matter of preference. Both way have “pros and cons”.

Patterns transferred to the wood: Fig 4

View attachment 127767

So the image shown above shows the patterns transferred to the wood, trying to have the length of the pieces running along with the wood grain. In this case, because I simplified the composition of the frame with a lower number of parts, some of the futtocks are much longer than they should be, had the frame been broken down according to period practices, it was difficult to have the length of the parts follow the wood grain: shorter parts work better. As indicated earlier, this frame is composed of 7 pieces: 3 for the front layer and 4 for the back layer. Parts / pieces have been identified as was done in the 2 previous images.

Once again, the breakdown of the frame is not historically correct. The frame could have been broken down into more pieces, but in the end it makes no difference as far as the actual technique is concerned.


Frame construction part two
Cutting the different elements composing the frame.

Again, to each his or her own, I my case, the tool of choice is a coping-saw.

One will note that the contour of each piece was done leaving between 1 and 2 millimeters extra material all around.

Fig 5
View attachment 127768

The image below is a view of the parts forming the 2 layers.
The 3 pieces at the bottom are the parts needed for the forward face of the frame. The parts are labeled F1, F2 and F3 as was done for the image shown as Fig 2.
The 4 pieces above are the parts needed for the back face of the frame. The parts are B1, B2, B3 and B4 as labeled in Fig 3.

Fig 6

View attachment 127770


At this point, the frames parts can be bundled and set-aside until frame assembly.

I should also note that working on several frames at the same time saves lumber as similar pieces can be traced or laid next to each other: this is relative to the shape of the pieces as well as length, etc…… Then cut and sorted out as long as each piece has been identified with frame and part number.


Next, I will document the following steps in the construction of a frame:

Getting the parts ready for assembly, then assembly, then fairing or squaring the edges.
I have the feeling, that here a great tutorial comes together ....... Many Thanks for your time and efforts Thumbs-Up Thumbs-Up Thumbs-Up
 
well another update, this is just verification if I am finally doing this correct, this is the bow facing part of the double frame No.6 that i re-did, comparison with the old incrrect one is this correct i have left a little meat on both sides you can see the pins in relations to the plan, in this one i did not mark the pattern, the stern part i will show the orignal frame No6 and how it increctly lines up againsr the frame drawing and on top of the correct frame, have i got this correct, also showing frame No.8 not sure if this is correct can anyone help on this see the pencil location at the futtock i think it is not correct and i do not like the cuve that devloped just does not seem right and it does line up the the plans, AGAIN HELP IS NEEDE, AND AGAIN I THANK NIGEL AND GILLES FOR SHARING THERE GREAT KNOWLEDGE20200110_025253.jpg20200110_025711.jpg20200110_025936.jpg20200110_030528.jpg20200110_031404.jpg20200110_032815.jpg20200110_033802.jpg
 
well another update, this is just verification if I am finally doing this correct, this is the bow facing part of the double frame No.6 that i re-did, comparison with the old incrrect one is this correct i have left a little meat on both sides you can see the pins in relations to the plan, in this one i did not mark the pattern, the stern part i will show the orignal frame No6 and how it increctly lines up againsr the frame drawing and on top of the correct frame, have i got this correct, also showing frame No.8 not sure if this is correct can anyone help on this see the pencil location at the futtock i think it is not correct and i do not like the cuve that devloped just does not seem right and it does line up the the plans, AGAIN HELP IS NEEDE, AND AGAIN I THANK NIGEL AND GILLES FOR SHARING THERE GREAT KNOWLEDGEView attachment 127882View attachment 127883View attachment 127884View attachment 127885View attachment 127886View attachment 127887View attachment 127888


First lets go through the plan of a frame and reading the lines defining the frame thickness.
In the monograph, each frame is represented as double-layer frame. So in a frame needing to have a bevel cut into it, you will see 6 lines representing 3 different areas through the thickness of the frame (the 2 layers): 4 solid lines and 2 dotted lines. The 2 doted lines are hidden edges.
From the closest to furthest lines:
The first 2 solid lines = forward face of the forward layer of the frame.
The first doted and the third solid line = the joint line between the 2 layers: either the back face of the forward layer or the forward face of the back layer.
The second doted line and the fourth solid line = the back face of the back layer


The image below is not a frame extracted from "Le Rochefort" plans but is somewhat similar.

Having a clear understanding of this is key in making frames.

_DSC0631 a.jpg


As far as your frame shown below, I can see some issues, see image below.
Bulging (fat areas of the frame), It is difficult to be sure as the pattern used to cut the parts has been removed from the face of the frame. As a result, I am not sure if the "fatter" areas just have more meat left (no pun intended).

Also the joints need improvement. I think it may be due to not having the platform at 90 degree with the sanding disk: if you are used a bench-top disk sander.

20200110_033802.jpg

Once the frame has been assembled, which should include keeping the full frame pattern with all the lines on at least the top or forward face, you should see the basic frame, just a bit larger because of the extra meat left around. The timbers are tapered towards the top and the only way you can achieve that is to keep the meat consistent all around (+ or - 1mm). When you cut the different parts, Floor-timber + futtocks, you can leave excessive amount of "meat" on each part. Once the frame is assembled reduce that amount of meat to a maximum of maybe 1.5 mm all around (if you are not comfortable with less): this is done when you square off the sides of the frame, Inside and outside: the inside meaning the face of the frame located inside the hull, the outside meaning the face of the frame recieving the outside planking. The important part is, when the you square the frame, the width of your frame should be equal to the space between the outermost edge and the innermost edge of the frame + the extra meat on either side.

_DSC0631 c.jpg

G.
 
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pictures showing prep for stern facing part of frame this time i show the overcut on the frame pieces maybe to much but will take care of it in the shaping of the framesView attachment 127896View attachment 127897View attachment 127897

The transfer to the wood looks good. The parts orientation follows the wood grain....good...... Now follow the meat lines when cutting.
Also, please make sure that if you use a bench-top disk sander, the platform where your part rests is set at 90 degree angle with the sanding disk so that when you glue the joint, you have contact on the entire surface between the 2 parts.
Furthermore, once the parts are assembled into a complete 2-layer frame, keep the patterns glued to the frame (top face of the frame). It will help you later.

So now that the patterns have been transferred to the wood to complete one frame, your assignment is:

1) Cut the patterns for one frame only: following the lines drawn as extra meat.

2) Sand the joint line, making sure that your sanding machine is set properly.

3) Dry fit all the parts over the complete frame pattern. If you are satisfied with the dry fit, including tight joints, the parts are lined up with the whole frame pattern.

4) Glue all parts together. If you have 2 pieces of glass slightly larger than your frame laying around, use one under the frame assembly and the other over top of your assembled / glued frame: it will keep everything perfectly flat but you need to be careful as to not move the parts since the glue was just applied. Once you have your glass sheet over top, again carefully place a weight on top and.....

5) Watch the glue dry for a few hours

6) Once the glue is dry, admire your work and take a photo of the frame. It should have all the patterns still on, as well as the extra meat around as you cut it for each individual part.

At this point do not do anything else on that frame.

if you are happy with the result move on to the next frame.

G ;)
 
First of all, Gilles many, many thanks for the very descriptive explanation. This is kinda an eye-opener (for myself). Correct me if I wrong to better understand the drawings (see edited picture with orange arrows). Here is the question: The joint between futtock numbered '1' and '3' for both frames?

_DSC0631 a.jpg
 
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