Cad design Alfred stern cad designing

working with hand drawn ship plans converting them to CAD drawings and taking those 2d drawings and building a 3D model seems much harder than you think. For some reason 2d drawings do not just translate into a 3d model. for one thing every tiny error shows up in the 3D model and that is a problem. When bevels are drawn on a plan they do not seem to be accurate enough to actually line up in the model. Going into such details on CAD drafting and 3d modeling is not an interesting subject on an open forum so that is the purpose of a private group of guys hashing out these issues and exchanging files. So if you have an interest in CAD work PM me.
The results of the work is far more interesting on the forum than the nitty gritty details of how and why

the sheer amount of hours spent staring at a computer screen wondering why things don't it fit or line up
 
if you are building a mock up or prototype or building a virtual computer model it take just about the same amount of time.
i ask is there a really need to have 3D models of ships for say help in building a kit or model? What purpose would a 3d model serve? are 3d models nothing more than a curiosity?
 
SZKUTNIK said:
Ahoy!
The 3D model is very helpful in creating assembly instructions for less experienced modelers, who have a problem with reading the technical drawings, nothing more
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ok lets say you design a kit at some point you have to build a prototype if you take photo of the building of the prototype in stages would that serve just as well as say a 3d model?
 
garyshipwright said:
Thats funny. I did it and didn't use a single key stroke to help me build mine. Seems a lot of builders builded them with out cad. Hum what did we do before cad. They built them in the 18th century model and full size and got with in a inch of two with out cad. Does one need cad no, just a stright edge and some ships curver's and a plan.
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yes this is true and it is old school i can take a pen and a bottle of ink and write a book but WHY if i can use a computer. A new age of model building is here

why do you use power tools you should be using all hand tools that you made yourself
 
like i said no bother it is good to here another point of view

Thought we was talking about how the stern was built not cad. Funny how that got turned around.

yes we are talking about how Harold Hahn built his model and no we are not talking about sterns in general of how they might of been built,
Yes we are talking about CAD design and building a 3D model the only thing turned around seems to be you.

however in this case the topic is about a reproduction of a Hahn model done as a 3d model so any other way has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Ok Dave you keep thinking like this but you still havn't answer my question of how they did it on a 74 and probably never will, which is fine. Sorry to bother you.

yes i did answer you i said i do not know because there is no Alfred to look at just an artists drawing so it is just a guess and i am happy with that.
 
SZKUTNIK said:
If the prototype is built by an experienced modeler - YES
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so if the designer of the kit actually built the prototype and photographed every step along the way that should be enough for any builder to build the kit.
this came up in the CAD group because it is a lot of time and work to create a 3D model and if you have to build a prototype anyhow there is no need for the 3D model as long as there is enough photos.

one point with a 3D model is the builder can view it at any angle, turn the model and zoom in or out so a 3D model is active as apposed to a static picture.
 
3D modelling as such became recently a specific type of model representation. People make complete representation of a ship which with advanced rendering and light/shade effects etc. which LOOK like a model. For someone who is satisfied with a picture on the screen instead of the physical reality of the model, this might be enough. I am not in this bunch, I want to have the model in hand, built to my best abilities and with my numerous incapabilities. Everyone builds the best model he is capable of. Looking at a perfectly done 3D model on the screen might be satisfying but does not substitute the real model. At the other hand 3D modelling is an excellent tool. I built the POB model of Duyfken using the replicas plan but the plans were far not enough to create the proper hull shape. So I created the 3D model of the hull in Solidworks and made those missing bulkhead shapes and it worked well. Sure I could have done it with a Yellutong solid instead of the CAD work but why not using the available modern technology instead of a ton of dust.
János
 
good point Janos
i was thinking 3D models more of a tool rather than a replacement for an actual physical model.

if you look at a Admiralty drawing of a ship for the most part there is a lot of missing information. Now some plans do include construction detail but for the most part details are left out. This might be because the draftsman of the plan expects the mater shipwright to know HOW the ship is built or that construction detail is left up to the shipwright and not the designer.

i also noticed ships were built with no plans or drawings at all the shipwrights seem to know how to build the structure. This makes me wonder if these drawings were not an intricate part of the building process but rather just a record of the ship.

So a shipwright can look at a plan and see in his head how it is built because he has years of formal training in school or served as an apprentice under a master shipwright.
You have to be able to look at a 2D drawing and visualize it in 3D and know how parts fit together, if you know what the parts are in the first place. This is what i am thinking where a 3D computer model fits the bill. A model ship builder in general would have a hard time filling in the construction blanks with no prior knowledge of naval architecture or even basic understanding of a ships structure. Using a 3D model that the builder can zoom in and look at a part or spin the model around and see it at different angles gives a builder a better understanding of what and how to build the model. It is like the saying goes "a picture is worth a thousand words"
a couple years back a builder was having problems building a bow section of a model it was difficult to talk him through the build but a simple 3d rendering of the parts and the bow resulted in Oh now i see how it should look.

"the 3D model isn't necessary" a true statement but then again reading and understanding what you read can be considered not necessary in everyday life but it sure helps to advance knowledge. Same with 3D modeling and computer designing it is not necessary but it is a big step in understanding the structure of what you intend on building.

i got into 3D modeling because it is a way to share a build, not to many people can come over my house to see a model but a 3D model i can share with anyone anywhere in the world.

the hobby is at a threshold of old school thinking and a new age of design and knowledge based building. When my grandson wanted to build a model the first thing he did was build a computer 3D model to "see" the structure.
Reminds me when i was in the graphic arts and computers were first being introduced the old times fought it tooth and nail business owners saw what can be done and these guys were just in the way so one by one they were replaced. As for me i ran out and bought a computer and was one of the last men standing.

so in the end those who say 3D modeling is not necessary are just in the way of progress it will take a little more time to refine but it is coming fast.
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
so in the end those who say 3D modeling is not necessary are just in the way of progress it will take a little more time to refine but it is coming fast.
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Absolutely correct, Dave! Many derided the automobile as unnecessary or a folly, but we all know how that turned out. You don't see many horse and buggy rigs these days! There will always be those who are stuck in the past for whatever reason. I believe technology can help us really innovate this hobby. That's what we are in the process of doing!
 
The 3D model is very helpful in creating assembly instructions for less experienced modelers, who have a problem with reading the technical drawings, nothing more

that would be the reason to introduce 3d models to the hobby as an instructional aid in building the kit or model.


If the prototype is built by an experienced modeler - YES

there has been over the past years builders complaining instructions lack detail. You are right the instructions and photos should be done by either the designer of the kit or a professional builder and someone who can actually write instructions that can be understood.

This is true. The 3D model facilitates the work of the designer, but the 3D model is not necessary. Good photos are enough.

as a designer things like carvings figureheads and fittings are first computer modeled then production pieces are made. Now you can hand carve a piece make a mold and cast parts, what you can not do is CNC a boxwood set of carvings without a 3D model. This is where things get kicked up a notch or two.
good instructions and lots of printed photos for the most part would be enough, offering a viewable 3d model is another level of instruction.


There will always be those who are stuck in the past for whatever reason. I believe technology can help us really innovate this hobby. That's what we are in the process of doing!

people who shun advancements are usually those who can not do it themselves, lack knowledge of how it is done or applied. It is easier to just stay where we are it is good enough, learning new things and ways of doing stuff is to much effort.
 
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NOW YOU GUYS ARE TALKING MY LANGUAGE, I AM THE ONE THAT NEEDS THE 3-D MODEL, I HAVE GIVEN EXAMPLES ASKING DOZENS OF QUESTIONS FELING STUPID FOR NOT UNDERSTANDING, THEN HAVE IT CLEAR AS A BELL IN 1 OR 2 QUESTIONS OR NONE AT ALL, AS SAID MANY TIMES IT IS ME THAT IS THE BACKBONE OF THE HOBBY (INTERMEDIATE TRYING TO SCRATCH, IT IS JUST FANTASTIC TO SEE SUCH SKILLED TALENT BUILDING SUCH FANTISTIC MODELS) I CAN ONLY DREAM ABOUT, AS SAID PRODUCE THE BEST YOU CAN ENJOY AND BUILD SKILLS TROUGH MODERN TECH, KEEP IT GOING R&D. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE YOU AND ALL DON
 
Yes, 3D model is a beautiful tool for demonstrating how a model is built. The only catch is that creating a 3D model of a model takes more time than building the kit itself (and needs a quite different set of knowledge). So it is far not economic to do it for a single build, but enhances the quality of a model building manual by 100% in case of a mass production!
János
 
Dave,
I am struggling to see how the side galley window is correct on Harold Hahn's model of Alfred.
In particular, the slanting roof area above the lower window frames looks not right to my eye. The area is above the lower window frames and below the vine leave carvings.

Photo of Hahns Alfred below-

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Brian, I agree the transition from the bottom row of windows to the top row does not seem to be correct. It would be good to see this photo against the actual plans of the ship.
In reality the only explanation I can find is that there is a gun port to the right of the upper row of windows and directly above the right window on the lower row. This placement of the gun port will throw any aesthetically pleasing transition out the window (or gun port in this case).
 
It is my hope that I will be able to use my previous experience in 2D autocad and microstation to learn how to create useful objects in a 3D CAD program such as freecad. My goal is to replace the inaccurate stern galleries of the Monogram kit of the Bonhomme Richard specifically and other models where gross inaccuracies are encountered. So far I have been learning how to use Tinkercad to create simpler objects such as a base for my model of the Revenue Cutter Hamilton and also a nameplate for the transom.
I see the use of 3D printed objects as another tool in the creation of good looking ship models.
 
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