Don's Santisima Trinidad by OcCre

[donlong]

Jerry (odenjs),

The best I can tell you is based on my own personal preferences. I also have an airbrush but am by no means an expert with it. I have seen some people that can paint 'the hand of God' with one. I on the other hand seem lucky to hit what I am pointing it at. With that said, I prefer to use a brush. I like the Angle Plaid brush series. They hold their shape and clean up easy.

I am a huge fan of water based products. I never worry about putting a finish on a part and then having to glue something to it. I use Titebond glue, Rust-Oleum Polyurethane Matte clear finish and Americana Acrylic paints. Being water based these products seem to work well together.

The Titebond is great because I can take something apart if I find I have screwed something up. Depending on the type of wood and the problem I can either soak it or spot brush the area in question.

While they are pretty, I do not care for a shinny finish on these ships unless they are going to be used for a house decoration. I use the Rust-Oleum and brush it a very specific way so to not leave brush marks. When done I can have several coats applied and you cannot tell it. It leaves the wood in its natural color. I have posted my brushing technique in my ST build log.

I like the Americana paints as they have a rich color pigment in them. They cover very well and look more true to life.

I can tell you, no matter what products you use; the wood surface preparation will make or break your presentation of the ship. I like the Gator Finishing 7800 Micro Zip Sander. It is a small 1”x3” hand sander with a Velcro (hook & loop) attachment system. The sander comes with 80, 120 and 220 precut strips of sandpaper. I found a site (Online Industrial Supply) that sells hook& loop sandpaper by the roll. The rolls are 4” wide x 10 yards long. You can get any grit up to 600. Then I like using the finger nail board files for the smaller areas and shaping. Finally, I use the finger nail files with the foam support between the sanding surfaces. I have posted information on this also.

For sanding the uneven surfaces of the hull, I use 80 or 120 grit. Once the proper shape and look is achieved, I use 330 and finish with 600. For the decks I use 220 or 330 and finish with 600.

I will be painting the hull of my ST but it does not matter if you paint or seal it, the surface prep will be the key to your success.

One other thing, it is not a crime to use wood fillers. I like Elmer’s Carpenter’s Wood Filler. Once again it is a water based filler. Natural is very close to ramin and walnut is very close to sapelli. For large areas you should fill them in with slivers of wood trimmed to fit the gap. For smaller areas you can use the filler. Some guys will save the dust from sanding and use that with glue to fill in gaps. I do that also. It just depends on how visible the gap is.

So my friend, I hope this helps. I can promise you my way is not the only way but it works for me. I to have some medical issues that has caused me to ‘sloooow’ down some. I needed to find something that allows me some inner peace. Building the ST fits that bill very well. When I finish the hull on the ST, I will be posting pictures of my progress.

Later,

Don

 

[donlong]

Anguirel,

Thank you so much for your input on the cannon. I have seen the site you referenced during my research on the cannon. I truly think the answer to my questions lies on the ocean floor off the coast of Cadiz.

My big heartburn was the 32 cannon verses the 34 cannon ports in the first battery. I have decided to show the 34 cannon. It is my opinion that these ships left the port fully loaded especially when they knew a battle was eminent.

Even the main deck armament configuration is a mystery. Especially with the howiter count. So it comes down to gut feelings and what one believes is the most reliable information out there.

The site you gave was helpful in determining if the hull had been copper plated or not. If memory serves, she was plated twice. So I will be plating the ST build.

I think for this build I have the color scheme, cannon counts and plating nailed down. She will also have full sails.

Thanks again for the info. It was good the hear from you.

Later,

Don

 

[Donnie]

I have to applaud both of you Anguirel and Don for your wealth of info and research and detail to the facts.

 

[donlong]

Hello to all,
I have two points that may be of interest to you. One is on the bending of the sapelli planks; the other is on the stern configuration. I will break these up into two posts.

First, I would like to thank everyone for their advice on bending the sapelli planking for the hull. Most of the ideas worked but I still managed to break some of the planking. A tool from MicroMark worked pretty well.


It is a #60377 Plank Bender Tool. It works on the principle of putting creases in the plank. The closer the creases, the tighter the bend. As long as the wood was very wet and I took my time, I was able to bend the sapelli even though I still managed to break one occasionally. The only issue I had with this tool was it would smash the wood during the creasing process and leave it a little thinner than it originally was.

Even though I am going to copper the hull, I still wanted to master bending the sapelli in case I came across this wood again in another kit. While the hull is not complete, I have some pictures of the progress.


I have done no trimming. My main goal was to get her planked.


I will cut out the cannon ports when the planking is done. I thought it would be easier to sand the hull without the ports. I have the placement dimensions for each port.


The sapelli has not been sanded so it looks pretty rough plus I ended up using super glue on the bow and stern to hold the wood in place.


Later,
Don

 

[donlong]

Back again with my second point.

Looking at the problems Donnie had with the stern, I thought I would check it out to see what, if anything, I could figure out before I started my scratch build of this section. The OcCre instructions were of little use other than it looked like they just glued the stuff together and did not modify anything to make it fit. I looked at all the drawings that OcCre supplied with the kit and found plan #2. One of the views is a nice 1:1 cross section of the ST, sliced right down the middle lengthwise.


Here is where I think I found a problem between the plans and the actual parts.

Just so you know, I established some ground rules for myself so I would not get confused or end up bouncing from one point to another. For me:

The drawing would be my baseline or in other words, the drawings are correct.

I am not a 18th century ship designer or builder so I am only guessing how it should be based on the drawings and some research.

The first thing I found is the backplane of the galley (54) is suppose to be 9.5mm from the back of the ship (18). The piece in the kit that supports the bottom of the galley (22) measures 4.5mm.


Here you can plainly see the original support piece is not as deep as the one I made.

The plan also shows the quarter deck (52) extending out further than it actually does on the model. It also shows the railing that holds the three stern lights is mounted on top of the galley backplane instead of on the deck side. If the plan is correct, it would push the galley backplane (54) out far enough for the light rail to clear the deck rails regardless if the light rail was mounted on the top or to the side of the galley backplane. To correct this situation I did the following:


Remove the bottom support (22) for the galley backplane (54).


Sand the back of the ship flat (18) and add two mounting blocks, make a bottom support (correct depth) and a new top support that will extend the galley backplane (54) out the additional 5mm, make additional pieces for the sides to match the hull curvature
glue these four pieces (plus one brace) together to make a frame that will hold the galley backplane.

The next three photos show how it looks on the ship.


I will extend the deck once I start the scratch build of the stern.

When I am ready to tackle the scratch build of the stern, I will glue the galley backplane to the frame I built.

Much to my surprise, this change to the model, will allow me to completely build the stern without it being attached to the ship. This is great as there is a lot of detail work that will be required to scratch build the thing.

So there you have it. I am disappointed that it has taken me so long to get to this point but I am pleased with the results.

Later,
Don

 

[Anaga]

Don,
I see you´re making good progress with the planking and taking a proactive plan to tackle the stern of Trinidad. Have you made up your mind regarding the stern looks?. I´m working on mine and here are the results:
I know it looks entirely different of what Crespo has but the Trinidad plan from 1796 shows this type of stern.This is the final version (7 windows)the second image is a variation(9windows):

 

[donlong]

Anaga,

Wow, what you are planning looks really nice. I had thought about using the design that came with the kit. It looks like the 1778 version Crepso drawing you sent me. I have a little more planking to do on the lower hull and then I can move on to something more interest to do with this ship. Since I can build the stern section and then install it, I think I will do the stern next.

I do have a question. How far does the balcony deck extend out from the windows and door. It looks like it is about 6 feet or 1.8 meters. I noticed on your drawings it does not seem to protude too far.

Later,

Don

 

[Anaga]

How far does the balcony deck extend out from the windows and door. It looks like it is about 6 feet or 1.8 meters. I noticed on your drawings it does not seem to protude too far.

If you´re going for Crespo´s 1778 stern you can glue the baluster to the stern leaving no room just like Hms Victory. If you want to leave some space between the baluster and the stern wall just do a 1cm wide balcony so you get some room. Your 1778 stern choice would allow you to do a less complicated quarter gallery as long there is no room for a balcony.
In my case the type of stern I´m doing poses some interesting construction problems. The balcony allows you to look forward to the bow because the quarter gallery does not end at the stern. There is a space between the stern and the quarter gallery that the balcony extends to. The gap is not big but it allowed anyone to look towards the bow.

 

[donlong]

Anaga,

Hmmm. I thought the ST had a balcony. Of the guys that have done scratch builds and most of the drawings I have seen, it appears she had one. I had selected the 78 because of the decoration. The 96 and 05 looks pretty plain. One cm would make the balcony about 2.7 feet in 1:90 scale. That does not seem like much to stand on.

The good news is I still have some time to finalize my plans. I really appreciate the information plus you have given me some more ideas to kick around.

I will let you know what I finally decide to do when I get to that point.

Later,

Don

 

[Anaga]

Don,
If you want balconies this is a pretty good example of the type of changes you will need to make to your Trinidad:
http://www.koga.net.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=34233
Also you need to think over how the quarter galleries are going to fit or rest at the stern. Whatever you chose to do its going to require careful study. The way the OcCre kit is designed is not helpful because the balconies were extensions of the decks and the guys at OcCre choose to take a big shortcut on the stern and quarter galleries.
The stern and quarter galleries are the type of things that make or break a model. Check this thread to see the type of complexity we can easily get into:
http://5500.forumactif.org/t562-le-commerce-de-marseille-la-poupe-par-bhuc
PS.-I love the jig he makes to hold everything in place :geek: ´The short video as to how every thing falls into place is jewel.... it makes you believe is a piece of cake doesn´t it?

Later,
Anaga

 

[donlong]

Anaga,
You gotta love computers. The one thing I did notice is he did not do a lot of wood bending. Instead he did a lot of wood shaping. That alone makes assembling these ships much easier.

I have seen the first site you sent to me before. I have to tell you, I am getting excited on doing this scratch build of the stern. I have most of it worked out in my head.

I have been working hard on the hull planking. I have a few more planks to install, some sanding and sealing... then I am ready for the stern project. In my case, I will have balconies. I also plan to have the quarter galleries as part of the stern assembly. I want to be able to slide the completed assembly in place when I am ready to install it.

Thanks for the additional information.

Later,

Don

 

[Anaga]

Don,
Check this Manuel Leon´s page on Santisima Trinidad. He´s using the plans from the Astillero page that are on the internet. There may be some things/ideas you could use on your build. The scale of the model is also 1/90:
http://navio-santisima-trinidad.jimdo.com/el-astillero/
Here´s how it looks at the moment:

You need to translate the page but there are lots of pictures of the different steps involved in assembling the Trinidad.
Later

 

[donlong]

Anaga,

WOW!! Thanks for the input. She is truly a thing of beauty.

I thought I would be done with the hull by now BUT I had to stop for a little bit.

I am one of these guys that never gets sick. Been that way my whole life. Then as you know, last year I ended up in the hospital, lost part of one lung plus the fluid that keeps it free from the ribs and found I had become a diabetic. I have done everything under the sun to get my health back and have been fairly successful until the beginning of last week.

Somehow, even after taking a flu shot, I ended up with the flu. About the only good thing I can say is I am still above the grass and beginning to feel better. The flu is bad enough for a normal person but when you have the issues I have, it brings it to a whole new level. A level that I was beginning to believe would send me to my great and final reward. Anyway, I should be able to finish up the hull soon. Then I can move on to something way more interesting than hull planking.

I have to tell you, if I had it to do over again, there is no way I would do the hull in sapelli. I am so thankful that I decided to copper the hull. My only goal is the surface prep for the copper plates. I learned a lot from the process I did and will probably do a lessons learned that might be useful for other newbies like myself. I am also beginning to appreciate the scratch build concept. I think double planking with thinner wood would have been better than using 2mm thick sapelli.

I also don’t agree with the kit instructions of starting at the garboard and the bottom bulwark, then work your way to the middle, then fill in the gaps. In my case, I lost the continuity of the shape at the bow and had to make some repairs to correct it. Otherwise, I was looking at ripping out all of the hull sapelli and doing it over with a more friendly (and flexible) dark wood. Fortunately my wood working capabilities allowed me to correct the bow issue. It is not all that pretty but it is the right shape and will not be seen due to the copper plates. So I am happy.

The neat thing for me is this issue has not discouraged me one bit. I can’t wait to get to the stern. Being sick gave me a lot of time to think about the balance of the ship. I have broken it up into mini-projects. The stern, the cannons, the hull painting, the hull plating, the masts, the rigging and sails. The sails may be a project in and of itself. I am not sure at this point. I thought of this because there are a lot of things still left to do. I need to make sure what I do does not screw up what I have already done.

Thanks again for the information.

Later,

Don

 

[donlong]

Hello to all,

Sorry I have not been more active on the site. In all honesty, my health took another turn for the worse and it has taken me a few months to get it together again. I am sick of being sick, if that makes any sense. It has been hard for me because I have never been sick until last year when I ended up with diabetes and bacterial pneumonia which cost me part of one lung. Anyway, I am back and plan to stay.

I did it… I did it. I finally got the lower hull planked on the ST. Since my plan was to copper the hull, my only goal was to plank it and have a smooth surface for the copper. I personally like to work a diluted solution of wood putty into the wood to fill in the grain and some imperfections. It helps to put a smooth surface on wood when you plan on painting it or my case plating it. Something my grandfather taught me in another life. Others use a wood sealer instead of the putty solution.

I went ahead and used the sapelli to plank the lower hull just to gain the experience of trying to plank with nail hard wood. If I had it to do over again, I would not use sapelli. As much as I love a challenge, the sapelli was more of a pain than what I learned from it. I found it very odd that some of it would bend like ramin, yet most of it would not bend without breaking or cracking regardless of the method I used to bend it. Upon further inspection, I found the cut of the wood made all the difference in the world. With that said, I am willing to accept my lack of experience on working with this type of wood BUT at the same time I had no problems planking the upper hull with the ramin. I did get the hull shape I was looking for and a smooth surface.

I have not cut out the cannon ports or the area for the keel. I am more interested in working on the galleys. I will cut out for the keel and then move on to the galleys. Now that she is planked, I also need to build a stand to hold her.

I do have some thoughts on planking. Obviously, read up on the subject. Unless you have good instructions in your kit (in the case of OcCre, there were none), seek the advice of others through sites like SoS or books specifically tailored on the subject of planking.

If the wood is difficult to work with, use a different wood. The process of planking will be the same... just a little less stressful.

In the case of the OcCre kit, the thickness of the planking varied a great deal. Also, the quality of the cut left a lot to be desired; saw marks, rough edges, etc. I made the mistake of thinking it could be sanded out. In most cases it could but in some areas, I came dangerously close to sanding through the plank; especially in places where the plank was bent. If you are going to paint or plate, the use of wood filler will benefit this issue. Otherwise, be selective on the quality of the exposed surface of the plank. Also, try to keep the thickness of the planks consistent.

Another issue I found with the sapelli was it had a tendency to want to ‘clink’ or ride up on the previous plank. I did not have this problem with the ramin. Even running my planks parallel with the waterline, I still manage to get this ‘clinking effect’. I solve my problem with filler so I would not have to sand the hull as much. Once again it will not be seen after plating.

The instructions and some of the planking books suggest you start from the garboard and the waterline and work in both directions, meeting somewhere in the middle. While I understand the principle behind this, you really have to pay close attention to the run of the planks. It is very easy to lose the flow of the shape of the bow and the stern. I found I had to plan a few planks ahead before gluing or nailing them in place.

Nothing else comes to mind at the moment. To this point, the lower hull planking has been the most difficult aspect of this project. I am pretty good working with wood but found the sapelli to be a pain. Anyway, here are some pictures of the ST. I am happy with the results and anxious to move on to my scratch stern build.


As you can see some of the planks broke. If I was going to leave the wood exposed, then I would have gone with a more friendly wood.


This actually looks worse than it is. I need to do a little more sanding and cut out for the keel. The shape of the hull was my prime interest so I am ok with the outcome even though the planking looks bad from this photo.

Later,

Don

 

[jct]

Hey Don,
Glad to see you've made a recovery and returned to your Trinidad, she's looking good
J

 

[donlong]

JCT,

Thanks for the kind words.

Popeye,

The ramin planking on the hull was so easy I began to think technique would be my only issue. The sapelli on the other hand was a nightmare. You are 110% correct on the grain issue but I did not, at the time, think that was the problem. Some would bend just like the ramin. Most, however, would not bend more than a few degrees before it would crack or break. It was like the water or steam was not getting into the wood. Every time I thought I had it figured out, something else would go wrong.

Anyway, I was determined not to be beaten by this so I pushed on. I am happy with the results. She has nice lines and the surface is very smooth. That was my goal and I did achieve it.

My next build will be the HMS Victory 1:90 by Mamoli. You can bet I will research and test the planks before I do anything. I love building these things and doing the research. I think I spent way too much time on the hull of the ST but I guess you just can't rush these things if you want it to turn out right.

Thanks for the info and advice. I will certainly put it in my things to remember column.

Later,

Don

 

[GaryM]

That is a lot of persistence but it does show that it can be done. This type of dedication is what makes a great modeler.
Why did you chose the Mamoli kit when are so many other Victory models in bigger scales. I am working on a Mamoli kit now and do not like the small scale and other things in their design. Of course there are things wrong with any kit design, but I am finding I do not like their cheap metal parts and their wood selection. They use single planking but say it is double planked. Their double planking is actually the wales and rubbing stakes over the single planked sides.

 

[donlong]

Gary,

I have the advantage of never building a model ship from any manufacturer, so I would not know the difference from one over another as far materials, instructions or quality are concerned. The same holds true with the scale. Of course it is a no brainer that a larger scale would be easier to build... at least in theory. I am comfortable (so far) with the 1:90 scale. I wanted a 1:90 Victory due to the 1:90 Trinidad. Mamoli had one plus it was on sale at the time I purchased it.

Oddly enough, I am having fun with the ST even with some of the issues I have pointed out. The OcCre kit (at least this one) leaves a lot to be desired but it has pushed me to be that 'great modeler'. I am by no means there yet but have learned a ton. If you remember, I have wanted to do this since I was 7. I am 66 now and finally building one. I have to tell you, it has opened up a whole new world for me. The research and the people I am meeting through this site is more than I imagined. The help and encouragement coming from you guys is a plus also.

I think the smaller scale is also helping me physically. My fingers seem to be more nimble and it is keeping the cobwebs out of my brain. I guess the best answer is I don't know any better.

I, at this point, don't think it matters what manufacturer or scale you use. I think it is the individual (the modeler) that will make the different. Example; the stern plate that came in my kit is crap. I posted a picture of it. Due to that, I feel compelled to build the stern from scratch. If I do it well, I have moved me closer to that 'great modeler'. If I blow it, I will have learned more about this hobby and there will be a bunch of you guys that will offer suggestions. Gary, it is a win-win for me.

The manufacturers will do what they can get away with. For them, it is their profit margin. For people like you and me, we will make it work regardless and share the information with others.

Thanks for your comments on Mamoli. It only makes me more determined to make the perfect ship when I start working on it.

Later,

Don

 

[Donnie]

Hi Don,
sorry for being away for so long. Just a lot of various things going on. No point in elaborating.

All I can say is "stunning" - the planking is just plain top notch. After a lull, I finally got back to working on my ST as well.

glad to see you back building again. I know you struggle with your health - just take care of yourself. I assume that you see your doc from time to time on all of this.

Donnie

 

[donlong]

Thanks Donnie,

Yes I see the doctor(s) on a regular basis. I asked one the other day if I could borrow his Mercedes. I figured I must have paid for it by now.

Sorry you are having issues. If you need to elaborate, you have my email address.

Thanks for your comments on the hull. The lower half was a chore but I refused to let it get the best of me. I am ready to have fun now that it is done. I plan on making installments on my scratch stern build shortly. I ran into a few honey do's I needed to get out of the way before I started. You know how that goes.

I should be able to make a good run on the ST now. The doctors have all of my vitals under control. I am eating right and exercising so I am beginning to feel pretty good. There are a few issues I will just have to live with from the surgery but I guess that is to be expected.

Anyway, by this weekend I should be on-line with the stern. I wanted to experiment with a few aspects of the stern before I actually committed myself or posted anything.

Take care,

Don