HMS Agamemnon by Caldercraft

[iutar]

Question for Iutar and all your followers.

In our case, this version of cutting in the boards is not suitable. It will appear only in the 19th century. In the 18th century, the "lost boards" method was used, as shown in the drawing in message 65.

If we talk about your method of cutting, then you are absolutely right, the use of margin plank before waterway is mandatory. But this is on decks. On superstructures, the waterway did not rise above the deck flooring, but was flush with it. Therefore, margin plank was not used there.

 

[AllanKP69]

Thanks Iutar. I am a still little confused, but that is nothing new for me. Goodwin shows waterways as below and they all have a rise to them rather than being flat so there would be an edge area as I show on the drawings above if a cut into the water way is made.
Allan

 

[HMSFly]

Mark, you will have another discrepancy: the semicircular turrets are toilets for midshipmen, they should protrude slightly beyond the edge of the hull.
These towers are called roundhouses.

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Hello Iutar, Hello Allan,

A lot of info.

Hi Allan,
Regarding ..... "still question the opening for the sprit through the deck"......
I glued everything together exactly to the millimeter, as shown on the drawings. See the attached assembly drawings, where this is further emphasized regarding the sprit. Could you please give me more details about what is wrong? Thx

Iutar,
Allan and myself contacted the Ship Yard who build 2 centuries ago the Agamemnon.
They responded as follows (extraction of the mail):



So we downloaded a lot of plans and one is indeed showing the toilets for midshipmen.
However they are not shown on all drawings of the Ardent Class.. However I will add them....after the second planking...

 

[HMSFly]

 

[AllanKP69]

I glued everything together exactly to the millimeter, as shown on the drawings.

I totally understand your dilemma. I think part of the problem is that the kit drawing is not faithful to the contemporary drawing. For example, they forgot to continue the upper gun deck under the beakhead bulkhead and end at the stem. Compare the contemporary plans with the kit drawing below. Assuming the forward most bulkhead on the kit drawing, #1 forms the beakhead bulkhead, they have it in the wrong place which adds to the problem. The beakhead bulkhead is about 4' 4" aft of the inboard edge of the top of the stem. The kit plans have it 6' 2" aft. If this bulkhead was farther forward as on the actual ship, the opening for the sprit would be partially forward of the beakhead bulkhead and partially aft of it. I added some lines on the drawing below to compare. Also, consider Iutar's post that there is no platform above the beakhead portion of the upper gun deck. I am convinced he is correct that there is no part like #59/21 as there would only be about 25 inches between the upper gun deck at the beakhead and part 59/21. If you follow the contemporary drawings though, it may cause other problems with the kit assembly. I apologize if I have made this even more confusing. I did add where the beakhead bulkhead would be assuming the RMG drawing is correct.
Allan

 

[iutar]

Allan and myself contacted the Ship Yard who build 2 centuries ago the Agamemnon.

Tell me, did the museum provide drawings of the quarterdeck, poop and forecastle?

 

[iutar]

I continue my answer about deck flooring.

 

[iutar]

The first quarterdeck beam is more complex. It is also wider and thicker than the other beams, it is also visible to the viewer and has a groove for cutting in the deck planks. But rather large bridges are attached to it on the sides, which also have a border of bare beams along the edges.



Here, too, the model designer Chris made some kind of base for the fence, but there is no need to do it.





Basically, it's just a more complex version.

 

[iutar]

At the poop-deck, everything is the same: the first and last beams are wider and thicker than the other beams, they are thicker than the other beams by the height of the deck flooring, have a groove for cutting in the deck flooring boards, are not covered by boards themselves and are clearly visible to the viewer.








Mark, pay attention. In these and other photos, you can clearly see that the deck planks taper to follow the shape of the hull. That's why there are so few "lost planks." The planks were made of softwood, they were long, straight, and tapered smoothly. They were not the same width along their entire length. This is also clearly visible in the drawings from message 65.

 

[AllanKP69]

Tell me, did the museum provide drawings of the quarterdeck, poop and forecastle?

Hi Iutar,
The drawings are at RMG and can also be found on the Wikicommons site. They have the orlop, lower GD, upper GD, and quarter deck in plan view. The only view of the poop deck is in the inboard profile plan.

Allan

 

[HMSFly]

Hi Allan and Iutar,

I still have many questions for you. I made a new main deck and upper gun deck from a piece of 1.5mm plywood. Initially, I wanted to temporarily attach it to do the initial planning and not break the bulwarks...


I've carefully studied Iutar's many photos and have drawn a sketch of the planking on the main deck with marker and pencil. Is this correct? Feel free to add your comments.

I do however have a practical problem. I see that the deck planking is curved.
The kit includes Tanganyika strips (1x4 mm) that can't be bent (they'll break otherwise). So, if I want to make the correct planking, I have to do it with basswood strips that I can bend. If I do the latter, staining them is a problem, as I'll never be able to achieve the Tanganyika color... I'll have to stain the planks, and therefore there will be a color difference with the Gundeck.

What do you advise?

 

[AllanKP69]

I have to do it with basswood strips that I can bend

Why not try it?
For the upper gun deck the outer two strakes were oak as were two strakes next to the coamings, so a light color wood should do well. The remainder was fir and holly works really nicely to show the contrast. It is easy to bend if the planking is to be curved. There are no doubt many other solutions as well.
Allan

 

[Winter]

I do however have a practical problem. I see that the deck planking is curved.
The kit includes Tanganyika strips (1x4 mm) that can't be bent (they'll break otherwise). So, if I want to make the correct planking, I have to do it with basswood strips that I can bend. If I do the latter, staining them is a problem, as I'll never be able to achieve the Tanganyika color... I'll have to stain the planks, and therefore there will be a color difference with the Gundeck.

What do you advise?

With the help of a heat applicator you can bend the slats without any problems.

 

[iutar]

I fully support Winter. Wood contains lignin (lat. lignum), which becomes soft when heated, and the wood bends until the lignin cools down again. You can heat the planks with an iron, or with water vapor from a kettle. In the old days, on real ships, planks were bent using special boxes into which steam was supplied. Personally, I can easily bend planks made from the hardest types of wood by first soaking them in water vapor.




And you forgot what I said. The planks should be tapered. If the plank is 4 mm wide on one edge, then on the other end it will be 2.5 mm (the taper was usually made by one third of the width). In this case, you need to grind gently from one edge, thus rounding the board.



I think the calculation of 5 mm beams is quite good. The thing is that the archival drawings from Wikicommonfiles essentially show a very late version of the ship's rebuilding, when the wide beams were removed and a solid spar deck appeared, and the stove and anchor bitts were moved. The ship on the plans looks the same as Victory did in the early 20th century, when she had a solid spar deck and high bulwarks. The plans are useless to you except to clarify the location of gun ports, deck heights, and hatch locations.

 

[iutar]

I look at your deck blanks. I will never believe that the ship had such a huge thickness of top timbers, and such thick bulwarks of superstructures. Look at the museum models from my messages. There the bulwarks are three times thinner. Knowing the creativity of the designer of this model, I am sure that the instructions suggest cutting off the frames after sheathing the side. The frames are only that thick because the plywood falls apart. The documents Allan was talking about should have numbers for the thickness of the top timbers and the thickness of the planking. This means that you need to make the frames thinner, because of this the waterway will be in a different place, and the gunwale and drift rails will also become thinner. Take a closer look at the thickness of the sides. Make the frames thinner. At least twice as thin!

 

[AllanKP69]

Going back to the posts concerning the margin plank versus waterway, I did find an 18th century cross section of a 38 gun frigate that makes me think the water way could be notched for the planking if it is wide enough. The sloped portion that carries the water down and away from the seam of the deck at the spirketting is present, but it very small. The flat of the waterway appears extended so it could be notched without creating issues. Looking closely it appears the water way is actually a laminated construction with a sliver between the spirketting and the waterway/margin plank.
Allan

 

[HMSFly]

With the help of a heat applicator you can bend the slats without any problems.

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Where did you purchase it?

 

[AllanKP69]

Irons work well but I find it easier to to heat them with a hot air gun from any local hardware store. Takes only a minute or two at high temperature (less than 250 C so you do not burn the wood ) but enough to soften the cellulose structure and make the wood softer and more pliable.
Allan

 

[Winter]

Where did you purchase it?

I bought it in a Russian online store. Look in stores for modelers, or in a store for handicrafts, there they are sold under the name - applicator for rhinestones, Aliexpress, Amazon. The main thing is to see that there are flat attachments, and not just round ones. Here is a link to Aliexpress.
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https://sl.aliexpress.ru/p?key=v4wv3Pb