LE COUREUR - french Lugger 1776 - POF kit from CAF in 1:48 by Uwe

Uwe, I know you have not glued any of these parts yet. I'm considering maybe not to make the rack at the open side. If both ammo racks are in place will it not be difficult to see it from outside? (I guess there is almost no space to look between the shelves in the rack)
BTW: It makes it slightly easier to cope with the Corona madness thinking that at least I don't have to sleep with a lot of explosives directly under my pillow :D
 
I may be jumping the gun as this is a work in progress, but aren't the ends of the floor beams supposed to be connected to the inner frames or supported by a beam shelf, etc?
Edit: I just noticed the other side of the hull is planked- ignore my comment.Redface
Correct - you answered it directly - these small beams do not have to take over high loads, so they could be based on the inner planking easily.
Many Thanks for your comment and interest
 
Today I received two bags (each 1kg) with decoration stones - with this I want to imitate the ballast stones in the hold of my CAF Le Coureur.
I was looking for grey, but I found only black in moment.
The small one have 2-3mm, the bigger ones 7-9mm - so in scale of 1:48 it would be 10 - 14cm and 34 - 43cm - so still possible to handle by the hands of seamen

IMG-5215.jpg


IMG-5216.jpg


The idea was grown by the CAF photo, although I think, that these stones are too big, but they give a good impression
25.jpg
 
One of the next works was the bulkhead wall close to the stern of the Le Coureur. the template ha s the number C1-14

IMG-5203.jpg

IMG-5188.jpg

I do not know, if I want tom install at wall with template 13 both big size doors, or only one - the room behind has no wall for separating the room - so my question here: why two doors, which are connecting one room with the next room.
Therefore maybe I make only one door and prolong the part of the wall
IMG-5189.jpg

On the photo before you can see, that the two parts of wall "14" are connected only with a very small area, so therefore I fixed this on the final wall element with small beams
IMG-5197.jpg
 
Hi Uwe, are these parts 13, 14, 15 only templates or also part of the sandwich wall construction?
These parts are made out of good quality plywood and are only templates to check the inner form of the hull with the inner planking.
You are able to check and adjust where necessary without using the final wall (made out of laser cut elements for the single boards)
When the plywood template is fitting well you can check the final necessary form with laying on top each other and transfer the form (if necessary)
This way is working very well
 
I could think of at least 2 reasons for having 2 doors but I have no clue if any of them is right:
1) Le Coureur was a French ship. Double doors (French doors) do indeed originate from France. It became fashion during the Renaissance period. It could perhaps be to make it possible to exchange more light and air between the 2 rooms and create an idea of more space (kinda like today's fashion with open kitchens)
2) Slightly more likely IMO, it could be to avoid chaos when people trying to get to/from compartments. When the hatch is open to the ammo room - maybe even with 2 persons, one above and one below the hatch - it will be impossible for a 3rd person to pass the ladder.

As for the deck beams ending in free air. Most likely you have already thought about this but then for other builders who are following your log: A solution to make a more rigid construction and at the same time avoid the look that may cause spectators to wonder like JohnA, could be using tiny pieces of planks between 2 frames, as in Etienne Piette's build:
1608192992967.png
 
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Today I received two bags (each 1kg) with decoration stones - with this I want to imitate the ballast stones in the hold of my CAF Le Coureur.
I was looking for grey, but I found only black in moment.
The small one have 2-3mm, the bigger ones 7-9mm - so in scale of 1:48 it would be 10 - 14cm and 34 - 43cm - so still possible to handle by the hands of seamen

IMG-5215.jpg


IMG-5216.jpg


The idea was grown by the CAF photo, although I think, that these stones are too big, but they give a good impression
25.jpg



Hello Uwe,
the ballas stones are to big for this scale.
Gerard Delacroix once informed me that the ballast stones
were originally the size of a walnut, approx 3-4 cm.

Die Ballaststeine sind für diesen Massstab zu gross.
Gerard Delacroix informierte mich mal,
die Ballaststeine hatten im Original die Grösse einer Walnuss, 3-4 cm.

siehe #73 und #74, 74GunShip hier im Forum.

Grüsse
Karl
 
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I could think of at least 2 reasons for having 2 doors but I have no clue if any of them is right:
1) Le Coureur was a French ship. Double doors (French doors) do indeed originate from France. It became fashion during the Renaissance period. It could perhaps be to make it possible to exchange more light and air between the 2 rooms and create an idea of more space (kinda like today's fashion with open kitchens)
2) Slightly more likely IMO, it could be to avoid chaos when people trying to get to/from compartments. When the hatch is open to the ammo room - maybe even with 2 persons, one above and one below the hatch - it will be impossible for a 3rd person to pass the ladder.

As for the deck beams ending in free air. Most likely you have already thought about this but then for other builders who are following your log: A solution to make a more rigid construction and at the same time avoid the look that may cause spectators to wonder like JohnA, could be using tiny pieces of planks between 2 frames, as in Etienne Piette's build:
View attachment 199412
Many Thanks for this comment and especially for the hint with Etienne Piette and his amazing model - I completely forgot this model, which is of a very good help also to understand - I will study these photos once more in detail
The idea with the short piece of planks at the ends of the small beams is really good - I will do so !!!

For everybody interested in the Le Coureur(s) of Etienne in scale 1:24, please take a look at this page:
you can choose the language for english language inside the web-page of the belgium amarsenal page

I also made an excerpt of the door problem - Etienne was interpreting in his model even more different - and installed three doors
CEP_380a.jpg
So it seems, that there were really more doors and your clue No.2 could be correct - Ok two doors will stay

and also visible here are the location of the thick stuff planks going along the complete length of the ship - we discussed this also several weeks ago
CEP_259.jpg
 
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Hello Uwe,
the ballas stones are to big for this scale.
Gerard Delacroix once informed me that the ballast stones
were originally the size of a walnut, approx 3-4 cm.

Die Ballaststeine sind für disen Massstab zu gross.
Gerard Delacroix informierte mich mal,
dieBallaststeine hatten im Original die Grösse einer Walnuss, 3-4 cm.

siehe #73 und #74, 74GunShip hier im Forum.

Grüsse
Karl
Hallo Karl,
ja daran hatte ich mich auch erinnert, aber ich habe hierzu auch noch etwas weiter recherchiert.
Gérard schreibt ja (so wie ich sehe) nichts von der Größe der Steine, sondern dass die Steine nur im unteren Bereich waren und darüber, zwischen den Fässern eben das Brennholz etc.
In Kriegsschiffen wie dem 74-gunship wurde der Ballast dazu verwendet, die Stabilität des Schiffes zu verbessern und zu trimmen.
Vor allem bei Handelsschiffen wurde der Ballast auch noch zusätzlich dazu verwendet, die großen Unterschiede von beladenem und unbeladenem Schiff auszugleichen. Dieser Unterschied war bei Handelsschiffen ungleich größer als bei Kriegsschiffen.

yes, I remembered that too, but I also did some research on this.
Gérard does not write anything (as I see) about the size of the stones, but that the stones were only in the lower area and above, between the barrels just the firewood etc.
In warships like the 74-gunship, the ballast was used to improve and trim the ship's stability.
In the case of merchant ships in particular, the ballast was also used to compensate for the large differences between a loaded and an unloaded ship. This difference was much greater for merchant ships than for warships.

Ballast stone:
Als gutes Beispiel für Ballast stone ist heute noch in den Straßen von Savannah zu sehen. Dort im Hafen wurden die Schiffe die ohne Fracht ankamen, vom ballast stone befreit und dann mit Gütern beladen und sind zurück gesegelt. Zurück blieb der Ballast, welcher dort später zum Pflastern der Straßen verwendet wurde.

A fine example of ballast stone can still be seen in the streets of Savannah today. There in the port the ships that arrived without freight were freed from ballast stone and then loaded with goods and sailed back. What remained was the ballast, which was later used to pave the streets there.


waterfront-savannah-620x465.jpg Ballast-Stones-Savannah-Close-Up.jpg

Savannah was established as a British settlement in 1733 and became the first city in the colony of Georgia. A combination of British agricultural technologies and African slave labour made Savannah one of the most important ports for the shipping of cotton, rice and sugar to the northeast of the United States and to Europe during the 18th and 19th century. Most of the ships went in ballast to Savannah and at arrival they dumped their ballast stones along the Savannah River shoreline. This means that ballast stones were arriving in substantial numbers to Savannah in the early 1800’s. The total amount of ballast stones found in the waterfront area today has been estimated to exceed 800.000 tons. For the city the stones became an inexpensive, durable, and fireproof building material.




also here the ADMAT wrecks with ballast stones - the black/white marks are 5cm
a+Island+Wreck+042.jpg

or here:

Site 35F
The available evidence indicates that site 35F was a heavily armed English merchant vessel engaged in West African trade that was lost between the middle and late 17th century (1650-1690). Research further suggests the site likely represents the first wreck of a Royal Africa Company ship discovered worldwide.
Artifact Description:
Site 35F can be characterized as the poorly preserved remains of a heavily disarticulated wooden hull associated with an extensive set of cannon, the existing remains of which are a very small part of its original cargo. No defined ballast mound or cluster exists, although stones underlying the wooden hull, and extending beyond the limits of the surviving hull structure, suggest that the original ballast concentration has been flattened and scattered by trawl drags. The ballast itself consists of rounded, cobble-sized stones 10-20cm in diameter on average. One typical example recovered and featured here, measures 21.5 x 10.0 x 7.9cm.
1._Ballast_Stone_T7a35f-5-06-0002-OR-OVM__77895_zoom.jpg
 
If there were bulkheads all the way around the ladder, as in the drawings of Edgar Jottay then it had to be 3 doors
Yes - I just checked once more in detail the drawings by Edgard Jottay shown in the given link

Perspective drawings made by Edgard Jottay from the plans of the Runner that the English drew up before transformation with the French accommodation as well as the adaptations planned for the incorporation of the Runner into the Royal Navy, as these are made on the plan in dotted, it was easy to represent the original arrangements. The three drawings gathered above show the officers' rooms and access to the saloon.

I was checking the contemporary drawings of the NMM and made a bigger excerpt

The complete drawing - as known the amendments made by the english after capture were drawn in green ink
j0874.jpg

j0874a.jpg

I tried to get the difference with additional lines to make it more clear

The original french interior walls marked with red lines - doors are blue
j0874a1.jpg

and the english changes with walls in green and doors once more in blue
j0874a2.jpg
 
Hallo Karl,
ja daran hatte ich mich auch erinnert, aber ich habe hierzu auch noch etwas weiter recherchiert.
Gérard schreibt ja (so wie ich sehe) nichts von der Größe der Steine, sondern dass die Steine nur im unteren Bereich waren und darüber, zwischen den Fässern eben das Brennholz etc.
In Kriegsschiffen wie dem 74-gunship wurde der Ballast dazu verwendet, die Stabilität des Schiffes zu verbessern und zu trimmen.
Vor allem bei Handelsschiffen wurde der Ballast auch noch zusätzlich dazu verwendet, die großen Unterschiede von beladenem und unbeladenem Schiff auszugleichen. Dieser Unterschied war bei Handelsschiffen ungleich größer als bei Kriegsschiffen.

yes, I remembered that too, but I also did some research on this.
Gérard does not write anything (as I see) about the size of the stones, but that the stones were only in the lower area and above, between the barrels just the firewood etc.
In warships like the 74-gunship, the ballast was used to improve and trim the ship's stability.
In the case of merchant ships in particular, the ballast was also used to compensate for the large differences between a loaded and an unloaded ship. This difference was much greater for merchant ships than for warships.

Ballast stone:
Als gutes Beispiel für Ballast stone ist heute noch in den Straßen von Savannah zu sehen. Dort im Hafen wurden die Schiffe die ohne Fracht ankamen, vom ballast stone befreit und dann mit Gütern beladen und sind zurück gesegelt. Zurück blieb der Ballast, welcher dort später zum Pflastern der Straßen verwendet wurde.

A fine example of ballast stone can still be seen in the streets of Savannah today. There in the port the ships that arrived without freight were freed from ballast stone and then loaded with goods and sailed back. What remained was the ballast, which was later used to pave the streets there.


View attachment 199421 View attachment 199427

Savannah was established as a British settlement in 1733 and became the first city in the colony of Georgia. A combination of British agricultural technologies and African slave labour made Savannah one of the most important ports for the shipping of cotton, rice and sugar to the northeast of the United States and to Europe during the 18th and 19th century. Most of the ships went in ballast to Savannah and at arrival they dumped their ballast stones along the Savannah River shoreline. This means that ballast stones were arriving in substantial numbers to Savannah in the early 1800’s. The total amount of ballast stones found in the waterfront area today has been estimated to exceed 800.000 tons. For the city the stones became an inexpensive, durable, and fireproof building material.




also here the ADMAT wrecks with ballast stones - the black/white marks are 5cm
View attachment 199422

or here:

Site 35F
The available evidence indicates that site 35F was a heavily armed English merchant vessel engaged in West African trade that was lost between the middle and late 17th century (1650-1690). Research further suggests the site likely represents the first wreck of a Royal Africa Company ship discovered worldwide.
Artifact Description:
Site 35F can be characterized as the poorly preserved remains of a heavily disarticulated wooden hull associated with an extensive set of cannon, the existing remains of which are a very small part of its original cargo. No defined ballast mound or cluster exists, although stones underlying the wooden hull, and extending beyond the limits of the surviving hull structure, suggest that the original ballast concentration has been flattened and scattered by trawl drags. The ballast itself consists of rounded, cobble-sized stones 10-20cm in diameter on average. One typical example recovered and featured here, measures 21.5 x 10.0 x 7.9cm.
View attachment 199426


Hello Uwe,
very good research.
Unfortunately I can't find the mail from GD.
Karl

5.jpg
 
HI ALL, UWE AND OTHERS AGAIN I AM SHIFTING TO DO THE LE COURER FIRST AND THEN THE ALERT, THE ALERT SEEMS TO HAVE SOME PROBLEMS THAT MY SKILL SET RIGHT NOW I DO NOT THINK CAN HANDEL THAT, THE USE THAT TOM IS DOING WITH THE 3-D MODELING CAN BE A TREMEDOUS HELP TO ME, MY INTIAL COCERN IS AND STILL IS THE FILLING, BEVELING AND SHAPING OF THE FRAMES COMENTS PLEASE NEED TO MAKE A DECISION BY CHRISTMAS. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON
 
So do you build to original French design or the modified English design?
This is really a good question, which I can not answer by 100% until now.
The two door wall supplied by CAF is representing the english version, also the ballast platform in the hold, which was implemented by the english shipwrights.
What I have to make in addition is the one single wall with door as entrance to the surgeries room close to the stairs - but than the view into the bedroom will be hindered...... we will see .....
Maybe I postpone the final decision until I finally fix all the prepared elements of the interior. But before I will definitely remove the hull from the jig and will make the external hull planking -> so I know exactly which parts will be visible
 
HI ALL, UWE AND OTHERS AGAIN I AM SHIFTING TO DO THE LE COURER FIRST AND THEN THE ALERT, THE ALERT SEEMS TO HAVE SOME PROBLEMS THAT MY SKILL SET RIGHT NOW I DO NOT THINK CAN HANDEL THAT, THE USE THAT TOM IS DOING WITH THE 3-D MODELING CAN BE A TREMEDOUS HELP TO ME, MY INTIAL COCERN IS AND STILL IS THE FILLING, BEVELING AND SHAPING OF THE FRAMES COMENTS PLEASE NEED TO MAKE A DECISION BY CHRISTMAS. GOD BLESS STAY SAFE ALL DON
Hallo Don,
It is not easy to give here a good or correct advise. I will try to give some arguments and summ up, due to the fact, that I have also both kits.

For both models, either the Le Coureur from CAF as well the Alert from Trident you will get detailed help and assistance within our active group builds.
For both models you have several running building logs, so you have a very good impression of several details and the different working steps. Therefore you have also for both ships several modeling friends being able to help, assists etc.
The making of the frames of the Le Coureur is maybe easier in principle, because the parts of the frames are put together more in the classic way (without the frame jigs of the Alert). On the other hand, the Le Coureur frames are all double frames, which are slightly more fragile and need maybe some more accuracy in gluing the five parts of each frame together (correct overlapping of the fairing lines etc) - and than off course the sanding and final fairing of the teeth......

I would advise, that you try both systems with some test frames, maybe not from midship (no fairing necessary) or not close to stern or bow.
F.e. at the Le Coureur frame 11 or 12 and from Alert one single and one double frame on axis 22, 23

I think, that you will get with the making of "test"-frames a good feeling of the different challenges .......

But definitely use as much as possible the available information inside the group build and study the comments by the members and the details shown in the photos.......
 
Hello Uwe!
I am wondering about the different shapes of the frames. The CAF frames are jagged (correct wording?), the frames on the model by Etienne Piette are smooth.
Are the jags for easyer planking just on the model or is this historically correct for clinker planking?

LG
Christian
 
Hello Uwe!
I am wondering about the different shapes of the frames. The CAF frames are jagged (correct wording?), the frames on the model by Etienne Piette are smooth.
Are the jags for easyer planking just on the model or is this historically correct for clinker planking?

LG
Christian
Hallo Christian,
these "jags" or I call it teeth are real cut into the frames

take a look at the excerpt from the contemporary drawing of the Le Coureur
detail frame.JPG

and also Jean Boudriot is showing in the planset review on one drawing this detail in the same way
from the Le Cerf, another clinker build french cutter
cerf9a.jpg

cerf5a.jpg


the drawing with the cross section of the Le Coureur
coureur18aa.jpg



these teeth are very good shown on this model which is based on the Jean Boudriot drawings
Cross section .jpeg

a Principle comparison of clinker and Carvel
clinker-carvel.jpg

I think, that Etienne Piette did not made these steps only because of the huge additional work - so I think, that here his model is not correct
 
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