LE COUREUR - french Lugger 1776 - POF kit from CAF in 1:48 by Uwe

[Maarten]

Hi Uwe,

I posted a procedure in reply to your question in my blog. Leave the wire to stick out for some 0,5 mm. First start with a bigger burr than the wire, this creates your center. From there you use the smaller burr, this creates the bolt head and the rove.
Clean your burr after every bolt.

 

[Kurt Konrath]

That's a lot of burring and cleaning!

Not sure what I will do when I get to that point, my plan is to see what all you others do first and copy one of those methods.

 

[Kurt Konrath]

You might want to check out the 1:48 scale railroad items called NBW (nut, bolt, washers) in plastic, very cheap 175 for $3.30 USD.



available from https://www.grandtline.com/products/miscellaneous-hardware/

 

[Jimsky]

Hello, Karl.
I tested the drill press and mill and unfortunately have not had success. However, following Maartens recommendations I was able to reproduce pretty much the same results. I don't have copper with the same diameter so I use brass wire 1.0mm. I think copper wire should be easier to handle.

1. I drilled the holes 0.9mm
2. cut the wire for the size
3. top the wire and leave just 0.5mm flat surface
4. Using larger cup bur start the head
5. Use the smaller bur, formed the bolt head

 

[Maarten]

Hello, Karl.
I tested the drill press and mill and unfortunately have not had success. However, following Maartens recommendations I was able to reproduce pretty much the same results. I don't have copper with the same diameter so I use brass wire 1.0mm. I think copper wire should be easier to handle.

1. I drilled the holes 0.9mm
2. cut the wire for the size
3. top the wire and leave just 0.5mm flat surface
4. Using larger cup bur start the head
5. Use the smaller bur, formed the bolt head

View attachment 213979

Hi Jim,

I think brass works quicker and easier as it is harder and doesnt clog your burr. You will only miss the nice copper colour shine on the bolts.

 

[Uwek]

Hi Jim,

I think brass works quicker and easier as it is harder and doesnt clog your burr. You will only miss the nice copper colour shine on the bolts.

Maarten confirmed my problem with the soft copper (with brass it is working much better) - I did not expect, that the burr has to be cleaned after every single use, but this clogging of the burr was the biggest problem on this excercise.
Due to the fact, that the planks of the Le Coureur are much smaller in width than on the Alert, I decided to use 0,7mm nails (much smaller than the Maarten wire with 1,2mm) - and this smaller diameter is producing an additional problem with the decision which burrs to use.
I am using until now the type 411

D3 is the inner diameter, so I have only the range between the types 008 and 010 - but I did not try until now using two different diameters in two working steps - I tried it in once, and several nails without the cleaning of the burr, so they were clogged with the abrasived copper

Yesterday I ordered an additional type of burrs, the "twincut". Here the head has two vertical openings, where the abrasive material should leave the head - maybe this type is helping........





Many Thanks to all of your help, comments and explanations....... good to have friends here in the forum, sharing their experience to have a second or even more opinions.......

 

[Jimsky]

I think brass works quicker and easier as it is harder and doesnt clog your burr. You will only miss the nice copper colour shine on the bolts.

...copper will oxidize over time and a shine will be substituted with nice patina (I love this natural color)

 

[Uwek]

...copper will oxidize over time and a shine will be substituted with nice patina (I love this natural color)

so my grandchildren will have a model with a nice finish - my daughter is now 7 and 1/2 ........

 

[Chello]

...copper will oxidize over time and a shine will be substituted with nice patina (I love this natural color)

Thanks Maarten, that’s just what I wanted to know. I have nearly finished the planking and was contemplating what to use for nails, brass or copper. It is clear for me I will use copper now. I’m not going to faff about yet with burring but contemplating to use nails with the nail head slightly filed flat or to fit the nail head off and file it headless nail flush with the plank.....

 

[Jimsky]

Yesterday I ordered an additional type of burrs, the "twincut". Here the head has two vertical openings, where the abrasive material should leave the head - maybe this type is helping........

Thanks, Uwe. I just ordered a set for myself with the smallest bur 0.8 (008) Busch® Cup Bur Set - Fastcut Twincut Fig. 411CT-008-020, Set of 12 SKU:121-1565 (the SKU might be different for other countries).

 

[Uwek]

BTW: I ordered these tools from company Fischer in Pforzheim Germany

Goldsmith Tools, Workshop Equipment, Findings & Pearls, Gemstones - Karl Fischer GmbH

Goldsmith Tools Shop. Since 1895, the Karl Fischer GmbH offers everything to the jewelry manufacturing. Tools and accessories for watchmakers, jewelers, model makers, opticians and other professional groups. Repair equipment, tools, machinery, findings, jewelry parts, gemstones, beads and...

www.goldschmiedebedarf.de

They have more or less everything in stock, safe packed and fast delivery.
BTW web-page also in english language available

 

[Jimsky]

so my grandchildren will have a model with a nice finish - my daughter is now 7 and 1/2 ........

Exactly..... Here are the copper bolts on my Charles Yacht a bit over 2 years... but, we are building our models (as you said) for descendants

 

[Maarten]

so my grandchildren will have a model with a nice finish - my daughter is now 7 and 1/2 ........

If you want to you can speed up the process, did this with my brass Royal Caroline guns, they now have a green bronze patina.
Hopefully it will then not be fully corroded away when your daugther is grown up.

 

[Maarten]

Thanks, Uwe. I just ordered a set for myself with the smallest bur 0.8 (008) Busch® Cup Bur Set - Fastcut Twincut Fig. 411CT-008-020, Set of 12 SKU:121-1565 (the SKU might be different for other countries).

Maarten confirmed my problem with the soft copper (with brass it is working much better) - I did not expect, that the burr has to be cleaned after every single use, but this clogging of the burr was the biggest problem on this excercise.
Due to the fact, that the planks of the Le Coureur are much smaller in width than on the Alert, I decided to use 0,7mm nails (much smaller than the Maarten wire with 1,2mm) - and this smaller diameter is producing an additional problem with the decision which burrs to use.
I am using until now the type 411
View attachment 214042
D3 is the inner diameter, so I have only the range between the types 008 and 010 - but I did not try until now using two different diameters in two working steps - I tried it in once, and several nails without the cleaning of the burr, so they were clogged with the abrasived copper

Yesterday I ordered an additional type of burrs, the "twincut". Here the head has two vertical openings, where the abrasive material should leave the head - maybe this type is helping........

View attachment 214044

View attachment 214043

Many Thanks to all of your help, comments and explanations....... good to have friends here in the forum, sharing their experience to have a second or even more opinions.......

Hi Gents,

I use the twin cut 411T. With the copper I still clean it after every use, just with the tip of a sharp knive, it goes quickly if you do this every time. If you don't clean it it will get clogged and then cleaning will be much more difficult.

 

[PoulD]

If you want to you can speed up the process, did this with my brass Royal Caroline guns, they now have a green bronze patina.
Hopefully it will then not be fully corroded away when your daugther is grown up.

That is the good part about oxidation of metals like copper, the oxidation creates layer that prevents further oxygen exposure and thus protect against further corrosion. I guess the model will not be put into seawater (electrolyte )but otherwise the layer also protects against electric current-

 

[Uwek]

I guess the model will not be put into seawater......

No Chance .... I am using water based wood glue - so after 10 minutes in water I would have 500 separate wooden pieces swimming around

 

[Uwek]

I am still thinking about these (bloddy) nails / bolts / treenails of the hull planking.

Today I want to jump back to the documentation we have (until now)

The HMS Alert, which is also clinker build, has frames without these steps shown clearly in the Anatomy book


She has frames with a curved surface - the planks are overlapped, so every plank is laying / contacting only on one smaller area with the frame (green areas) - and with each bolt with a washer the lower part of the plank is pressed against the upper part of the under it laying plank against the frame.
On single frames there area bolts with washers, on double frames there are 50% bolts with washers and 50% wooden treenails.

When we take now a look at the french clinker build cross sections like the Le Coureur and the Le Cerf, both well known by the plansets from Jean Boudriot

Cross section shown in the Le Cerf

you can see, that the surface area, where the plank is in contact with the frame is at the end over the complete area of the frame (green lines)

and this is what Boudriot is writing in the monograph of the Le Coureur


So we have Fig.1

We can read
"The planks are held tight between frames by nails clinched on the inside, or screws and bolts (sometimes the planks are nailed directly to the framing)."

This is the original french text


OK: The nailing between the frames (logitudinal to the plank) will be not shown in the models - so we have only the information "screws and bolts"

Taking also a view on the hull planking drawing of Boudriots Le Coureur we can see bolts with a relatively small head - according my feeling much smaller than on the Alert drawing above


and here the view of the Le Cerf



Therefore my conclusion:
I have the feeling, that on these french clinker build ships the bolts had no washers ...... What do you think (or know)?

Maybe one french speaking member can check also the french text, so maybe @Gilles Korent or other knowing more technical tdetails about the french way of bolting the hull planking could bring some light into the subject ?!?!

 

[Gilles Korent]

There are different way of clinching nails.
In real life:
a small washer may be used (a metal plate is actually used in the video below):

clinch nailing - Search Videos

www.bing.com

Just the nail:

clinch nailing - Search Videos

www.bing.com

In the model, the representation will likely omit clinching the nails altogether and the washer if used.

I would say that the planks would have been nailed to the frames as usual. Between the frames the 2 planks would have been fastened together on the overlap either clinched as shown in the second video or using screws with bolt / nut. Clinching would make better sense.
G.

 

[Uwek]

There are different way of clinching nails.
In real life:
a small washer may be used (a metal plate is actually used in the video below):

clinch nailing - Search Videos

www.bing.com

Just the nail:

clinch nailing - Search Videos

www.bing.com

In the model, the representation will likely omit clinching the nails altogether and the washer if used.

I would say that the planks would have been nailed to the frames as usual. Between the frames the 2 planks would have been fastened together on the overlap either clinched as shown in the second video or using screws with bolt / nut. Clinching would make better sense.
G.

Hallo Gilles,
many thanks for the given information and the informative videos.......
I think (in moment), that I will make the copper nails without the washers (and to reduce the work) and maybe imitate the small nails between the frames with some dotts of a scriber - Let us see, waht the weekend in the workshop will bring .......
And by the way: The model has two sides of a hull visible is everytime only one side

 

[PoulD]

There are different way of clinching nails.
. . . .
I would say that the planks would have been nailed to the frames as usual.

Being of Viking heritage and living close to Roskilde Viking Ship Museum, maybe I should know a lot about clinker/ lapstrake - but I don't Anyway, I think a lot has changed over the 750 years between the Viking boats and Le Coureur. During the last couple of days I have read a number of different articles, doctoral dissertations etc. about the subject but unfortunately I don't speak French and I could not find any litterature in English about investigations of French shipwrecks from the 18th century or anything else that could enlighten me (I found a lot about wrecks from other countries, though most of them from earlier or later periods, but none whatsoever about French clinker build wrecks from the 18th century )
To me 'to clench' or 'to clinch' is not the most important. These terms seem to be a bit fuggy anyway, covering, as you say, a vaste number of different ways to secure nails from falling out. 3 of which shown in this drawing from Micahel Carty's book 'Ship fastening" (By Chris Buhagiar, after Crumlin-Pedersen et al.Inset after McKee 1976, 6):

By the way, the washer (if any) is rightly called a burr, if I understand correctly

What I am more is interested to know (and also Uwe I guess) is how the planks were fastened to the frames. When you say "nailed to the frames as usual" I'm unfortunately still totally ignorant as I have no clue what the usual was in France in that particular period of time . Am I right if I guess that usual means Ø 25-30 mm treenails, possibly wedged at one or both ends? Or does it mean some kind of metal bolts?