Occre - HMS Revenge 1577 - scale 1/85, 2nd build and why

[DARIVS ARCHITECTVS]

Yes totally agree and I imagine the end result of my model ignoring the skills will at best be a representation of the ship with 4 masts, if indeed that's what it did have at one point and I am OK with that.
Just need to see the differences between the kits of Occre and Amati, the finished results while similar do look quite different and could be different ships from the same era.

If we turn the tables and select a current day war ship and get say 5 artists to paint or draw the ship with no criteria set on detail and no digital images, one person will paint it once every 5 years in different scenarios, for example one in port perhaps showing a few other ships, another out to sea and another in a battle exercise etc.
Now during the 25 years the ship may go in for a refit or updates so the will likely look different over the time period, are you still with me.
Lets fast forward 450 years to the year 2471 and ask a modeler to build the ship based on the images in front of them, there is no confirmation which order they are done in either, oh also the data storage systems of today no longer work in the future so any plans of the ship are also lost.
Now we can also add additional paintings or models were done by various artists over the years that never actually saw the original ship, sound familiar, it could be the Revenge story.
I think the end result built will have some resemblance to the original ship but many details will be lacking, any conjecture on specific details is probably going to remain just that conjecture, now ask many modellers to build from the same images and I expect the results will be just as varied with everyone's interpretation different.

My reasoning for going with Occre it was about half the price in Australia of the Amati kit, you can see that the Occre Revenge also shares a few similarities with other kits in Occre range like the Buccaneer so compromises have been made in the design, my overall goal was to see if I could finish building a second ship and could continue with this hobby.

When in the dark, it's a good idea to compare those two kit companies interpretations of what they think the ship looked like and choose which features seem best based on your research, if you can find data. Also, since ships do change over time due to refits and rebuilds, locking your model to a configuration for a specific time is necessary. If (or when) I build HMS Revenge, I would choose the Amati kit over the Occre based on the color choice primarily, and bash it to fit the features to the best research available. Your Occre kit looks fantastic so far. I am watching this build with great interest!

 

[Richie]

Thank you for the description, I had seen the image before but didn't know what it was depicting until now.
Yes Tudor colours of green and white seem to have been quite common.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00253359.1966.10659322

View attachment 253396

When in the dark, it's a good idea to compare those two kit companies interpretations of what they think the ship looked like and choose which features seem best based on your research, if you can find data. Also, since ships do change over time due to refits and rebuilds, locking your model to a configuration for a specific time is necessary. If (or when) I build HMS Revenge, I would choose the Amati kit over the Occre based on the color choice primarily, and bash it to fit the features to the best research available. Your Occre kit looks fantastic so far. I am watching this build with great interest!

Thank you good tips, my kit bashing is at a low level at the moment, however your modification work is amazing.
I do like the look of the Amati kit but it came down to pure economics for me.

 

[Cirdan]

Also this link was interesting showing a few images and description of the Revenge final battle, I used google translate to english.

Combate de Isla Flores. Apresamiento galeón Revenge 1591 | Todo a babor

Esta es la relación, por medio de documentación de la época, del célebre combate de Isla Flores, donde fue apresado el famoso galeón inglés "Revenge".

www.todoababor.es

The final battle, depicted on a tapestry:



Source b/w photo: https://rkd.nl/nl/explore/images/record?query=de+Maecht&start=11

Source colour photo: Bryce Walker, The Armada (Time Life books), p. 162 (german edition)

 

[Richie]

The final battle, depicted on a tapestry:

View attachment 253478 View attachment 253479

Source b/w photo: https://rkd.nl/nl/explore/images/record?query=de+Maecht&start=11

Source colour photo: Bryce Walker, The Armada (Time Life books), p. 162 (german edition)

Excellent thank you.

 

[Richie]

The gun ports are another area I made a small change to the original plans.

The lids I guess for simplicity are just stuck on the rubbing strake, but if they mounted like this for real with those hinges they wouldn't be able to close properly.
My plan was to use the tail piece of the fake hinge casting and use it to mount under the top of the gun port to simulate being hinged from underneath.



Another area I made a small change taking my queue from the Mary Rose and a model of the Elizabeth Jonas in Londons Science Museum, is to give a bit of depth to the original flat square lids by adding some hull planking strips to the original lid and just overlapping slightly, I didn't want to add too much thickness hence the use planking strips.




Here they are in place ready to have the ropes inserted into the hull.
No dedicated work area for me it's on the kitchen table, the admiral loves it being taken over by a.

 

[Richie]

With rigging coming up soon I had a sneak peak ahead at the plans, I am going to be so confused as it's a weak area of knowledge for me, the kit plans may not be a complete version of how it would be rigged in real life and I see differences between the Occre and Amati versions.

 

[Steef66]

With rigging coming up soon I had a sneak peak ahead at the plans, I am going to be so confused

Not an easy job to rig these ships of that era. A lot of crowfeet
Just stick to a accurate plan. and do it step by step.
I used the book of Peter Kirsch for my plan. And the books from RC Anderson. Because the plans from Billing Boats weren't accurate at all.



the pdf is more visible.

success studying how to rig a 16th century galley.

 

[Richie]

Not an easy job to rig these ships of that era. A lot of crowfeet
Just stick to a accurate plan. and do it step by step.
I used the book of Peter Kirsch for my plan. And the books from RC Anderson. Because the plans from Billing Boats weren't accurate at all.

View attachment 253973

the pdf is more visible.

success studying how to rig a 16th century galley.

Thank you Steef66, looks like I have some reading to do and see what I can learn.

 

[Cirdan]

Here's the book review of the Kirsch book by Olga Batcharov:

New on your bookshelf ..... show it here

@AMac you can follow this link. The Paasch is very helpfull and has as well lot of drawings inside. https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/help-with-translation.6043/#post-128701

shipsofscale.com

 

[Richie]

Here's the book review of the Kirsch book by Olga Batcharov:

New on your bookshelf ..... show it here

@AMac you can follow this link. The Paasch is very helpfull and has as well lot of drawings inside. https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/help-with-translation.6043/#post-128701

shipsofscale.com

Thank you Cirdan, didn't realise she had reviewed this book, looks like a great read. Does Olga have a library every Modeler can only can dream about, and has great skill to stand a flat surface with that rotary sander, I end up with a wavy surface.

 

[Richie]

Thank you to all for providing some guidance, I will do some reading before starting rigging but sense I might have some nightmares about this.

I collected some images from the internet and this forum for comparison as any rigging on a particular ship before around 1600 seems to be a best guess scenario.
The image from Steel66 is dated 1610 so 19 years after Revenge sunk but does look to be the most complete and closest we can get to show what it might have looked like.
I was looking at the Amati Revenge kit images and the rigging looks to be the quite similar to the above image more so than Occre anyway, does anyone know if the Amati plans are available to download like the Occre kit which can be found here:

13004-REVENGE.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[Richie]

Wellcome,
there are more ... I' ve collcted some info about galleon when was active busy with my model
SOS picture, high resol.

Файл из Облака Mail.ru

Вам открыли доступ к файлу. Отправлено с помощью Облако Mail.ru.

cloud.mail.ru

and Various Galleons info...collected during working on my model

Архив из Облака Mail.ru

Вам открыли доступ к файлу. Отправлено с помощью Облако Mail.ru.

cloud.mail.ru

Архив из Облака Mail.ru

Вам открыли доступ к файлу. Отправлено с помощью Облако Mail.ru.

cloud.mail.ru

Архив из Облака Mail.ru

Вам открыли доступ к файлу. Отправлено с помощью Облако Mail.ru.

cloud.mail.ru

Архив из Облака Mail.ru

Вам открыли доступ к файлу. Отправлено с помощью Облако Mail.ru.

cloud.mail.ru

Have been looking through the collection, there is an amazing amount of great info thank you.

 

[Cirdan]

As far as I know Chris Watton (the Designer of the Amati Kit) based the Kit on the Revenge plans by Rolf Hoeckel, but also on personal research. This plans are included in your first collection (galleon 1).

 

[Heinrich]

ALL I can say is that you will not find a better researched set of rigging instructions for a Galleon than those provided by @Steef66 , I followed his build of the Spansk Galleon in detail and know exactly the many many hours that went into the rigging of that ship.

 

[Richie]

ALL I can say is that you will not find a better researched set of rigging instructions for a Galleon than those provided by @Steef66 , I followed his build of the Spansk Galleon in detail and know exactly the many many hours that went into the rigging of that ship.

Thanks Heinrich, unfortunately my inexperience is showing now, at the moment all I see is a lot of back lines blending into each other or disappearing to the deck somewhere.

 

[Richie]

As far as I know Chris Watton (the Designer of the Amati Kit) based the Kit on the Revenge plans by Rolf Hoeckel, but also on personal research. This plans are included in your first collection (galleon 1).

View attachment 254513

Thanks Cirdan, interesting I didn't know of those links and wondered where the Kriegschiff image came from, now I know.

 

[Richie]

My internet browsing turned up something interesting at this link of Popular Science Monthly April 1933 page 65.

Popular Science

Popular Science gives our readers the information and tools to improve their technology and their world. The core belief that Popular Science and our readers share: The future is going to be better, and science and technology are the driving forces that will help make it better.

books.google.com.au

In fact quite a few ship building articles, like this one of a small boat November 1935 page 64, it really was a different time back then encouraging everything DIY.
All the magazines are available to view online.

Popular Science

Popular Science gives our readers the information and tools to improve their technology and their world. The core belief that Popular Science and our readers share: The future is going to be better, and science and technology are the driving forces that will help make it better.

books.google.com.au

 

[Richie]

The cannons were worked on bit by bit in between other longer tasks like planking and painting whenever I needed a change of pace, so here is a quick summary.

The carriages were assembled from the preformed plywood pieces, I wanted to keep the wood look but needed to hide the joins connecting the bottom and sides so a dark strain was used.



The barrels needed a little cleaning up from casting like the one on the right to look like the one on the left, this also applied to the lower deck half barrels.



Here are the assembled cannons looking for a ship, I kept the wheels as natural wood colour.



As per the plans this is how they would look finished on deck.



But I decided to add an extra touch.
Using access from the brass etchings I cut to size the cap-squares and rounded the middle section and then blackened them.



I also thought about cannon rigging and decided to just add a breach rope, at 1:85 scale I didn't want to add oversize rigging and the carriages weren't too robust to add ring bolts and rings etc, in my view with the scale if it doesn't look right and was better to leave it off, also I am going to add sails so the detail will likely be obscured somewhat anyway.

Now this is what they look like, I am satisfied with the result.

 

[Uwek]

Hi All,

As a member of this ship modeling group thought it was about time I posted something.
This will be my second build after enjoying the process on my Port Jackson Schooner which can be seen in the showcase if interested.

Ships of Scale

Ships of Scale features a Vast Model Ship Gallery with over 300 Model ships online from contributors all over the world. Visit Ships of Scale Forum and Register. Forums, Scratch Built, Ship Gallery, Period Ship Wooden Models.

www.shipsofscale.com

I often wonder why modelers choose to build the particular ships they do, a common reason I see is there is some personal attachment to a particular ship but other than that I guess the reasons are as varied as there are models to build.

For my second build I wanted it to be quite a bit different to the first one, that is I wanted to try a lot of techniques the schooner didn't include.
Firstly the local admiralty ordered that if I build a second ship it had to include sails, ok can't disobey an order so that was the number one priotity and wont get into the modelers debate if they should or shouldn't include them.
Some other reasons are I wanted it to be a multi deck warship from around the period 1500's to 1800's as this seems to be where my interest lies, so naturally this includes some canons and gun ports but didn't want to dive to deep with more than say 20 for now.
I also wanted to try doing some ratlines and painting colours in the details, also didn't want it too expensive (in case I lost motivation)or too difficult for my still novice skills and just to have some visual appeal to me, a good back story also adds to the interest.

As I am in Australia Modelers central have a filter for skill level on their kits so I was looking in the mid range of about three and with the above criteria the list go a lot smaller so I settled on HMS Revenge from Occre.

I am happy with my choice and is turning out about the right level of challenge for me.
My thoughts on the kit, I think it is more of a representation of the actual ship than an accurate historical model, but I am ok with that as the kit template follows a couple of other ships in the Occre line up, guess this is where some costs are kept in check but I will attempt a few tweaks and additions to some areas along the way where I thought it lacked a bit of detail.

I haven't found many build logs for this particular ship so hopefully this will help someone else to see a way of doing things while I learn as I go or maybe equally how not to do things.

Pictures and updates to follow soon, happy for anyone to add any suggestions or corrections to something I may have missed but a bit nervous to put my mistakes out there for everyone to see, the work produced by everyone in this forum is just amazing and I am in awe and wonder how someone can produce models to such perfection.

Modelers central website: https://www.modelerscentral.com/model-ship-kits/occre/hms-revenge/
From the Occre website: https://catalog.occre.com/model-ship/ship/hms-revenge.html

Hallo @Richie
we wish you all the BEST and a HAPPY BIRTHDAY

 

[Heinrich]

Hello Richie. A very happy birthday to you! I wish you all the health and happiness possible in the coming year and trust that there will be plenty of time for taking over the kitchen table!