Wonderfull - your ratlines and shrouts are first class - extremely realistic -
You know already: I am in love with your model......
You know already: I am in love with your model......
Pinnace Papegojan 1627 - 1/48 [COMPLETED BUILD]
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Thanks, there so many ropes it's hard to see.
About the tackle and pendants of the ridder I would go for the PW method. The W.Rex is 50 years later than your model. There is indeed not much to find about it. I search a while ago to it. Because my model has these wooden lead blocks on the side of the back. Wanten to know why they where there.
About the tackle and pendants of the ridder I would go for the PW method. The W.Rex is 50 years later than your model. There is indeed not much to find about it. I search a while ago to it. Because my model has these wooden lead blocks on the side of the back. Wanten to know why they where there.
To my opinion we are dealing with two different sorts of ropes here: the first is safe-line (coming from a hole in the counter and running through a hole in the rudder, ending in a knot) to avoid losing the rudder and the second was a steering device in case something happened to the tiller. I think the latter is only applied in moments of stress caused by damage. I don’t think they were rigged all the time. The former however was certainly always rigged.
Steef66: The lead blocks on the aft side of the fore shrouds were meant for the sheets of the spritsail. They enter the ship about at the location of the main mast and the block (called ‘kontwachter’, which I dol not dare to translate here) was there to prevent the sheet from dragging in the water.
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Thank you @Uwek for your comment and for other similar... It's always very motivating 
Kirill,
Thanks for your "few words".
You are right... I was digging through all stuff I have... books, drawings, photos... and not much can be found except those few I've posted earlier...
Now I'm bit confused... because there is one think which I don't like while looking at illustration from H.M. Kamer book... rudder tackles are going through transom channels... but as far I'm aware those channels are used for mooring ropes or for example for towing... examples as below...
Vasa from B. Landstrom book.
Kalmar Nykel
...but then you see image like this and you are not sure anymore
Transom below looks exactly like on my model
@Steef66 you are right... W. Rex is out of consideration from the beginning, posted just to show different versions.
@Ab Hoving Thank you for your input....
I agree with you... two different ropes with different purpose.
Preventer (safe-line as you describe) or pendant or whatever name it carry... it's pretty much clear for me, that it's need run from rudder up to the transom...
I found few nice images from B. Landstrom Vasa book. He is demonstrating how those ropes run.
In his book those ropes are separate for starboard and port side. Two holes in the rudder. Ropes are running to tiller port not through additional holes in the transom like for example in PW.
That's sounds resonable that side tackles are for "emergency" steering in case of tiller damage... but I thought also and came with theory that maybe those tackles were use as a additional steering help during rough weather if sailors couldn't manage to steer only with whipstaff, perhaps they could use those tackles to lock the course (???)
Just a theory
Anyway... thank you all for your input... I was looking for some options half a day and that's what conclude my search.
I guess I will go w PW version with side tackles... but pendants I will run like on Vasa form B. Landstrom book, so through tiller port...
Looks good enough... and make sense... but still I'm very intrigued why H.M Kamer showed in his book that second ropes goes through mooring holes...
Cheers,
Matt
Kirill,
Thanks for your "few words".
You are right... I was digging through all stuff I have... books, drawings, photos... and not much can be found except those few I've posted earlier...
Now I'm bit confused... because there is one think which I don't like while looking at illustration from H.M. Kamer book... rudder tackles are going through transom channels... but as far I'm aware those channels are used for mooring ropes or for example for towing... examples as below...
Vasa from B. Landstrom book.
Kalmar Nykel
...but then you see image like this and you are not sure anymore
Transom below looks exactly like on my model
@Steef66 you are right... W. Rex is out of consideration from the beginning, posted just to show different versions.
@Ab Hoving Thank you for your input....
I agree with you... two different ropes with different purpose.
Preventer (safe-line as you describe) or pendant or whatever name it carry... it's pretty much clear for me, that it's need run from rudder up to the transom...
I found few nice images from B. Landstrom Vasa book. He is demonstrating how those ropes run.
In his book those ropes are separate for starboard and port side. Two holes in the rudder. Ropes are running to tiller port not through additional holes in the transom like for example in PW.
That's sounds resonable that side tackles are for "emergency" steering in case of tiller damage... but I thought also and came with theory that maybe those tackles were use as a additional steering help during rough weather if sailors couldn't manage to steer only with whipstaff, perhaps they could use those tackles to lock the course (???)
Just a theory
Anyway... thank you all for your input... I was looking for some options half a day and that's what conclude my search.
I guess I will go w PW version with side tackles... but pendants I will run like on Vasa form B. Landstrom book, so through tiller port...
Looks good enough... and make sense... but still I'm very intrigued why H.M Kamer showed in his book that second ropes goes through mooring holes...
Cheers,
Matt
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Actually they are not mooring holes. They are there to lead the ropes which pull the boat.
Don’t use Landstrom as a source. However beautiful is paintings are, he works with interpretations (and too often with misinterpretations).
And certainly don’t use Kamer as a source. You will end up confused. Choose your sources from original material, like painters like Van de Velde, Bakhuizen, Nooms and Vroom. So use paintings and drawings if no literature is available.
Just an advice.
Don’t use Landstrom as a source. However beautiful is paintings are, he works with interpretations (and too often with misinterpretations).
And certainly don’t use Kamer as a source. You will end up confused. Choose your sources from original material, like painters like Van de Velde, Bakhuizen, Nooms and Vroom. So use paintings and drawings if no literature is available.
Just an advice.
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Thanks Ab for the explanation but yes I know what a "kontwachter" is. I won't translate it either.
In a picture of Matt you can see it
I was pointing to this one on my PW. First I didn't know what it was and for what. Now I know.
Very Nice!
Thanks Dear Ab!!!
Information just in time!
When I will be back at home, I have to rearrange these safe lines/ preventers, and to free holes which have to be used for boats tug ropes...
Das it mean, that on WRex model, restorators placed them wrong!? I used it as example when rigged these ropes.
By the way, Landstrem , on pictures posted above, looks like shown them right.... used for boat tug ropes...
Thanks Dear Ab!!!
Information just in time!
When I will be back at home, I have to rearrange these safe lines/ preventers, and to free holes which have to be used for boats tug ropes...
Das it mean, that on WRex model, restorators placed them wrong!? I used it as example when rigged these ropes.
By the way, Landstrem , on pictures posted above, looks like shown them right.... used for boat tug ropes...
"....Anyway... thank you all for your input... I was looking for some options half a day and that's what conclude my search.
I guess I will go w PW version with side tackles... but pendants I will run like on Vasa form B. Landstrom book, so through tiller port...
Looks good enough... and make sense... but still I'm very intrigued why H.M Kamer showed in his book that second ropes goes through mooring holes..."
Dear Matt,
Why don't follow advice by Ab Hoving...?
to use pictures of 17 th century as cource of information? non of 17th pictures shown this pendants run trough tiller port, but trough special made hole, but only Landstrom shown them like this, looks like his pure guess work... and why two lines?)) there always shown one.
And decorated holes on both sides of transom used for boats tug ropes, as Ab Hoving mentioned...
I guess I will go w PW version with side tackles... but pendants I will run like on Vasa form B. Landstrom book, so through tiller port...
Looks good enough... and make sense... but still I'm very intrigued why H.M Kamer showed in his book that second ropes goes through mooring holes..."
Dear Matt,
Why don't follow advice by Ab Hoving...?
to use pictures of 17 th century as cource of information? non of 17th pictures shown this pendants run trough tiller port, but trough special made hole, but only Landstrom shown them like this, looks like his pure guess work... and why two lines?
)) there always shown one.And decorated holes on both sides of transom used for boats tug ropes, as Ab Hoving mentioned...
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Hi Kirill,
I've been looking at some more paintings, drawings, plans... and I came some time ago to the same conclusion as you... that should be only one rope...
It's visible on your pictures...
...and in O. Blom drawings too...
Ab advices are always very precious... that's why I looked at some paintings...
Then on Winters Holländische Zweidecker also one... etc
So... yes... I've decided to go with one... and to run the rope through hole not through tiller port.
I'm still having doubt regarding side tackles... should I put them or not...
They are visible on Prins Willem plan... but I don't have any evidence on pinnace.
Even then I really like this detail... in that case I think it will be the best to not get overexcited... and I think I will skip the side tackles.
One day if I will find evidence I can add them at any time
Landstrom pictures are really beautiful... but I think they are "too candy" in some areas.
Cheers,
Matt
I've been looking at some more paintings, drawings, plans... and I came some time ago to the same conclusion as you... that should be only one rope...
It's visible on your pictures...
...and in O. Blom drawings too...
Ab advices are always very precious... that's why I looked at some paintings...
Then on Winters Holländische Zweidecker also one... etc
So... yes... I've decided to go with one... and to run the rope through hole not through tiller port.
I'm still having doubt regarding side tackles... should I put them or not...
They are visible on Prins Willem plan... but I don't have any evidence on pinnace.
Even then I really like this detail... in that case I think it will be the best to not get overexcited... and I think I will skip the side tackles.
One day if I will find evidence I can add them at any time
Landstrom pictures are really beautiful... but I think they are "too candy" in some areas.
Cheers,
Matt
Good day Matt,
I understood your desision, and this is more sciеntific point of vew on the subject than main, when I did it on my model just because I like it very much !))
I understood your desision, and this is more sciеntific point of vew on the subject than main, when I did it on my model just because I like it very much !
))
Inderesting... what is this ?
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@kirill4 on your Spanish Galleon you have cloths around the tops on the mast. These ships got these cloths around the ships everwhere. I see them on pictures at the rijksmuseum where the PW is. I don"t know how these cloths where called. But it could be possible that when in battle these cloths where take down and where put under the shrouds. I just gues
The things you point at are spare wooden parts. They had to stow them somewhere...
Thank you, Dear Ab Hoving,
oh yees))... I didn't think about it! ... before I saw on other models , sometimes spare spars shown stored on deck... but didn't think that spare wooden parts could be stored outside as well...thanks!
I saw on some 17th dutch drawings, they store spare round mast top outside hull...
oh yees
))... I didn't think about it! ... before I saw on other models , sometimes spare spars shown stored on deck... but didn't think that spare wooden parts could be stored outside as well...thanks!I saw on some 17th dutch drawings, they store spare round mast top outside hull...
Dear Stephan,
They called- arm cloths or waistcloths depends on location, and this stuff designed specialy / primary to be used in buttle, as protection people against handle weapons , bullet an so , and secondary, in decoration purpose...
There were some remarks about this armcloths/ or waistcloths in Landstrem book about Vasa, page 135-136 ,
during battles there was used more protection layer -servings and waistclothes hanging above it....
So , doubtfully , that this devices were keeping rolled like on the picture, during battle, they must be in use ....
They called- arm cloths or waistcloths depends on location, and this stuff designed specialy / primary to be used in buttle, as protection people against handle weapons , bullet an so , and secondary, in decoration purpose...
There were some remarks about this armcloths/ or waistcloths in Landstrem book about Vasa, page 135-136 ,
during battles there was used more protection layer -servings and waistclothes hanging above it....
So , doubtfully , that this devices were keeping rolled like on the picture, during battle, they must be in use ....
Yesterday I dropped same question on other shipmodeling site post 510 ,https://www.shipmodeling.ru/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=73412&start=495 in result, answer was the same as Ab Hoving gave us in a short and condenced style ))
This spare spars could be considered as elements which could be shown on such high detailed model as your pinnas, as addition to realism and historic accuracy...))
In copy
"...
Well, I think it is already obvious that the spare spar. At the same De Velde it is found in different ways, both in a case and without a case. But not often. I quickly throw in a couple of pictures, without quality and other things, I just hesitated to flip through two thousand images from the De Veld generation conveyor - thank you!
In Dutch ships, the spare spar is depicted under the main-channel and under the mizzen-channel. Such an arrangement of spare parts, under the shrouds, is explained by the need for space for people to move on the channels when reloading guns outside the side, as well as rigging and other works. It is also not everywhere, but another feature of fastening spare parts and accessories on Dutch ships often comes across - a spare Mars on board the utah. You've probably seen it.
Fish beams could also be carried out and fixed outside the side, which in the Dutch reached a length equal to the width of the forecastle. Maybe some of the boats' mast is also tucked away under the shrouds.
..."

))This spare spars could be considered as elements which could be shown on such high detailed model as your pinnas, as addition to realism and historic accuracy...
))In copy
"...
Well, I think it is already obvious that the spare spar. At the same De Velde it is found in different ways, both in a case and without a case. But not often. I quickly throw in a couple of pictures, without quality and other things, I just hesitated to flip through two thousand images from the De Veld generation conveyor - thank you!
In Dutch ships, the spare spar is depicted under the main-channel and under the mizzen-channel. Such an arrangement of spare parts, under the shrouds, is explained by the need for space for people to move on the channels when reloading guns outside the side, as well as rigging and other works. It is also not everywhere, but another feature of fastening spare parts and accessories on Dutch ships often comes across - a spare Mars on board the utah. You've probably seen it.
Fish beams could also be carried out and fixed outside the side, which in the Dutch reached a length equal to the width of the forecastle. Maybe some of the boats' mast is also tucked away under the shrouds.
..."

I have very strange feelings...))
Most of these pictures I saw 100s times in the past, but didn't see these spares outside hull...but they always been there!))

))Most of these pictures I saw 100s times in the past, but didn't see these spares outside hull...but they always been there!
))
That proves it Kirill: you only see what you know.
Ab
Ab
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Another very interesting discussion and findings
Thank you all for input.
Indeed spare spars or spare wood stored this way under the channels or behind shrouds are detail I've never seen on any model... but it can be really interesting and eye catching.
Cheers All
Thank you all for input.
Indeed spare spars or spare wood stored this way under the channels or behind shrouds are detail I've never seen on any model... but it can be really interesting and eye catching.
Cheers All