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Pinnace Papegojan 1627 - 1/48 [COMPLETED BUILD]
- Thread starter mati.n
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Foot ropes: The rigger/sailmaker of the Batavia model recently did a research and the conclusions in his report were that there is no evidence for them before 1660 (in Holland that is, in Bond's book of 1642 though, they are mentioned) and if there are foot ropes (first on the topyards, later also on the other yards), then they were without the vertical supports (stirrups), only with knots in several places to prevent slipping.
Gaskets: If I look at Van de Velde pictures I certainly see gaskets on topsails and if I look at pictures of furled topgallant sails I don't see them, but they must have been there too because the distances between the places where the sails were tied seem so equal.
I don't remember mentioning of any alternatives, but there must have been some sort of device ready on the yard. I don't believe anyone would go up with a ruler to measure the equal distances we see there.
Funny that there are no examples of gaskets hanging in front of the topgallant sails, but there are pictures where you can see gaskets hanging behind spritsails. Perhaps that explains their absence.
We hardly see any gaskets on contemporary models (for as far as they are trustworthy after all the restorations done over the years), but it is possible that modelmakers tend not to place them on higher sails because they don't look tidy.
Here some men working on the topgallant sail:
By the way: the system seems to have been that there were two rings attached to the yard, the gaskets were spliced on the forward one and when used they were hauled underneath the furled sail, they passed the backward ring and then they were twirled between the sail and itself, without using knots.
Good luck,
Ab
Gaskets: If I look at Van de Velde pictures I certainly see gaskets on topsails and if I look at pictures of furled topgallant sails I don't see them, but they must have been there too because the distances between the places where the sails were tied seem so equal.
I don't remember mentioning of any alternatives, but there must have been some sort of device ready on the yard. I don't believe anyone would go up with a ruler to measure the equal distances we see there.
Funny that there are no examples of gaskets hanging in front of the topgallant sails, but there are pictures where you can see gaskets hanging behind spritsails. Perhaps that explains their absence.
We hardly see any gaskets on contemporary models (for as far as they are trustworthy after all the restorations done over the years), but it is possible that modelmakers tend not to place them on higher sails because they don't look tidy.
Here some men working on the topgallant sail:
By the way: the system seems to have been that there were two rings attached to the yard, the gaskets were spliced on the forward one and when used they were hauled underneath the furled sail, they passed the backward ring and then they were twirled between the sail and itself, without using knots.
Good luck,
Ab
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Beste Ab, just like Mat already agreed, this topic is rather unclear but interesting if you want to go for details.
The distance seems equals. Is there a rule about the distance of the gaskets or how many there are?
The rings where on the top of the yard, due to your picture. Not exactly on top but slightly forward or backward?
Thanks
The distance seems equals. Is there a rule about the distance of the gaskets or how many there are?
The rings where on the top of the yard, due to your picture. Not exactly on top but slightly forward or backward?
Thanks
Hard to say how many gaskets per yard were used. If I had to guess I would say that it depends on the number of cloths. For instance: every 2 or 3 cloths one gasket. The problem is that if Van de Velde draws gaskets, he hardly shows the cloths and reverse. On the William Rex model in the Rijksmuseum there is a difference in size of cloths. The upper sails with narrow cloths (about 50 cm) seem to have a gasket every 3 cloths, the lower sails at every two cloths (of about 75 cm). But it seems to vary, looking at different pictures.
On the Hohenzollern model the staples seem to be in the middle. But hard to tell:
On the William Rex model they are on top. Someone (it wasn't me) clewed the gaskets on this model and hung them behind the sail, so they are a bit hard to see. I think the reason is the 'untidyness' of these loose hanging ropes in the eyes of model builders and restorers. They should hang on the front side, I guess.
On the Hohenzollern model the staples seem to be in the middle. But hard to tell:
On the William Rex model they are on top. Someone (it wasn't me) clewed the gaskets on this model and hung them behind the sail, so they are a bit hard to see. I think the reason is the 'untidyness' of these loose hanging ropes in the eyes of model builders and restorers. They should hang on the front side, I guess.
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Thank you @Ab Hoving for another informative advises. Really precious 
Looking at Willem Rex is giving me enough evidence and reasons to fit gaskets on all yards.
In term of number of gaskets... looks like main and fore yard has much more of them (9-10) on each side... most likely because of the size and weight of the sails, I guess...
Top yards and spiritsail yard has already less between 2-6.
I will go most likely with 4 or 5 for top yards... and 3 or 4 for spiritsail yard.
Examples from impressive Otte De 7 Provincien drawings.
However... I've spotted little error on the drawing.
On below drawing he drawn 6 gaskets on rigged spiritsail yard.
But on yard drawing itself he has 1 less... so only 5
...anyway... because we were not living in those times, I guess we can just support ourselves with old books, drawings, paintings and models like Willem Rex for reference... and overall draw conclusion for best and reasonable solution.
I have to correct main yard gaskets then... and add rings so each has double
Staples for gasket rings looks like they should be in the middle, but who knows
Again... Otte drawn them in the middle... on main and fore yard, but spiritsail yard has them slightly forward
Looking at Willlem Rex model they seems to be also in the middle.
@Steef66 my goal is to rig the ship as accurate as possible. Rigging accuracy and quality is one of the thing, which always amaze me in models.
Looking at Willem Rex is giving me enough evidence and reasons to fit gaskets on all yards.
In term of number of gaskets... looks like main and fore yard has much more of them (9-10) on each side... most likely because of the size and weight of the sails, I guess...
Top yards and spiritsail yard has already less between 2-6.
I will go most likely with 4 or 5 for top yards... and 3 or 4 for spiritsail yard.
Examples from impressive Otte De 7 Provincien drawings.
However... I've spotted little error on the drawing.
On below drawing he drawn 6 gaskets on rigged spiritsail yard.
But on yard drawing itself he has 1 less... so only 5
...anyway... because we were not living in those times, I guess we can just support ourselves with old books, drawings, paintings and models like Willem Rex for reference... and overall draw conclusion for best and reasonable solution.
I have to correct main yard gaskets then... and add rings so each has double
Staples for gasket rings looks like they should be in the middle, but who knows
Again... Otte drawn them in the middle... on main and fore yard, but spiritsail yard has them slightly forward
Looking at Willlem Rex model they seems to be also in the middle.
@Steef66 my goal is to rig the ship as accurate as possible. Rigging accuracy and quality is one of the thing, which always amaze me in models.
Well done Matt, you're still a master.
Ab
Ab
Great discussion, information, research and correction and execution -
I love your model, but also I love to follow the masters in the research to make a master model
I love your model, but also I love to follow the masters in the research to make a master model
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Hi All,
Thank you @Ab Hoving, @Steef66 and @Uwek for your nice comments.
Some updates...
Mizzen yard and all require blocks and mizzen lift are in place.
Main yard and fore yard lifts and lift blocks are also in place.
Next step will be to add parrels and tight yards in "permanent" position.
Look's like at that stage parrels has to go on the workbench and I can't delay them any further
Cheers,
Matt
Thank you @Ab Hoving, @Steef66 and @Uwek for your nice comments.
Some updates...
Mizzen yard and all require blocks and mizzen lift are in place.
Main yard and fore yard lifts and lift blocks are also in place.
Next step will be to add parrels and tight yards in "permanent" position.
Look's like at that stage parrels has to go on the workbench and I can't delay them any further
Cheers,
Matt
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Parrels you can't live with them, but also can't live without them of was it something with women.
But all the craziness on a stick (Dutch proverb) you did a magnificent job. Even your pictures are from a high quality. They show the details very good.
Just a question, you don't do sails, is it not looking more natural to let the gaskets hang down?
of was it something with women.But all the craziness on a stick (Dutch proverb) you did a magnificent job. Even your pictures are from a high quality. They show the details very good.
Just a question, you don't do sails, is it not looking more natural to let the gaskets hang down?
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Thanks Stephan.
I know if I will omit parrels I wouldn't be able to sleep anymore
My goal is to show some other modelers elements of the rigging, so it's more clear and understandable for others if they have doubt.
Rigging is the most beautiful part of the model in my opinion and deserve enough attention.
Obviously I know it's not perfect... but having Ab for example as great advisor and some smart books it's easier to find out correct way to rig the ship.
Gaskets... not sure. When all yards will be in place I will have general look and see how it will look with hanged down ropes and how it will look with looped around the yard.
Cheers,
Matt
I know if I will omit parrels I wouldn't be able to sleep anymore
My goal is to show some other modelers elements of the rigging, so it's more clear and understandable for others if they have doubt.
Rigging is the most beautiful part of the model in my opinion and deserve enough attention.
Obviously I know it's not perfect... but having Ab for example as great advisor and some smart books it's easier to find out correct way to rig the ship.
Gaskets... not sure. When all yards will be in place I will have general look and see how it will look with hanged down ropes and how it will look with looped around the yard.
Cheers,
Matt
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Hi All,
True Stephan. It's rather hard to fully rig the model with most of the available plans... Books as a support are necessary to do t right. I'm not counting newest Ancre publication for example (L'Aurore has such a detail plans of rigging... truly amazing)... and I'm sure there are some others with such a high detail plans... but it's still small percentage.
Anyway... parrels on the spot now.
So I've maid main yard parrel.
Rather problematic element and detail... not because of making it... but to fit it to the yard and mast it's great finger gymnastics spiced with lots
...but it's done. Still missing lanyard, but this will be done next.
Beads are brass little bit less than 2mm (bought super cheap in AliExpress)
Rope is 0,55mm.
It's hard to stick lens in such a tight spot and get good shot where is clear how it's "tight" around yard so I will attach drawing as a guide. Hopefully it will be more clear and understandable.
Cheers,
Matt
True Stephan. It's rather hard to fully rig the model with most of the available plans... Books as a support are necessary to do t right. I'm not counting newest Ancre publication for example (L'Aurore has such a detail plans of rigging... truly amazing)... and I'm sure there are some others with such a high detail plans... but it's still small percentage.
Anyway... parrels on the spot now.
So I've maid main yard parrel.
Rather problematic element and detail... not because of making it... but to fit it to the yard and mast it's great finger gymnastics spiced with lots
...but it's done. Still missing lanyard, but this will be done next.
Beads are brass little bit less than 2mm (bought super cheap in AliExpress)
Rope is 0,55mm.
It's hard to stick lens in such a tight spot and get good shot where is clear how it's "tight" around yard so I will attach drawing as a guide. Hopefully it will be more clear and understandable.
Cheers,
Matt
Hello Matt, I've never posted but I have been following along. Of course you know your work is exemplary in every way - thank you for showing such precision. It is something I aspire to. I am a first time builder and uninformed when it comes to naval architecture, etc. so please excuse this question for its naivete. I am working on the Wasa at 1:65. Your Parrot was of the same time period and nationality. How much of your rigging pattern do you think could be carried over to my build? Thanks for any help/advice you might be willing to offer.
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Hi Matt,
All of your work is very impressive, but it's your rigging that literally gives me goosebumps. I really hope that is not a weird thing. Not only are all of the components of the highest quality, but they look like they are not just there to look good, but function as well!! Is my assumption correct? Can you actually use the running rigging, as an example?
Also, I agree with you and Steef, I do enjoy finding answers to my own questions (there seems to be a lot of them). This is, after all, how we build our own knowledge. I had no idea when I started this hobby I would be also getting many lessons in nautical history! It's just an added benefit/byproduct of the hobby. Also, much to my surprise, after some time I realized, suddenly, I have a library.
Never my intention, as I hate dusting off books, but so necessary and again, to my surprise, enjoyable. For me, rigging was the most intimidating aspect of a model ship and I'm a "picture learner". A book that really helped me out was "Rigging Period Ship Models: A Step-By-Step Guide to the Intricacies of Square-Rig Hardcover – March 1, 2011"
Although it is somewhat generalized to square sail ships and does not necessarily contain the nuances of every country and period during the age of sail, it is a great publication. It is almost nothing but illustrations. Great for us people who learn through pictures/images opposed to text. I understand you don't need this book, but only provided the link for others here at SoS in case they happen to be looking for another information source for rigging.
Sorry for the long dissertation.
Super work. It's special indeed.
Cheers,
Ken
All of your work is very impressive, but it's your rigging that literally gives me goosebumps. I really hope that is not a weird thing.
Not only are all of the components of the highest quality, but they look like they are not just there to look good, but function as well!! Is my assumption correct? Can you actually use the running rigging, as an example?Also, I agree with you and Steef, I do enjoy finding answers to my own questions (there seems to be a lot of them). This is, after all, how we build our own knowledge. I had no idea when I started this hobby I would be also getting many lessons in nautical history! It's just an added benefit/byproduct of the hobby. Also, much to my surprise, after some time I realized, suddenly, I have a library.
Never my intention, as I hate dusting off books, but so necessary and again, to my surprise, enjoyable. For me, rigging was the most intimidating aspect of a model ship and I'm a "picture learner". A book that really helped me out was "Rigging Period Ship Models: A Step-By-Step Guide to the Intricacies of Square-Rig Hardcover – March 1, 2011"Rigging Period Ship Models: A Step-By-Step Guide to the Intricacies of Square-Rig: Petersson, Lennarth: 0884513183760: Amazon.com: Books
Rigging Period Ship Models: A Step-By-Step Guide to the Intricacies of Square-Rig [Petersson, Lennarth] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Rigging Period Ship Models: A Step-By-Step Guide to the Intricacies of Square-Rig
www.amazon.com
Sorry for the long dissertation.
Super work. It's special indeed.
Cheers,
Ken
Last edited:
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Almost the same. 1625 or 1628 are less difference.
Also not the easiest period. A lot of crowfeet.
I know the feeling, never had a bookshelf, now I do.
Very good books are RC Anderson riggin in the spritsail and James Lees. They give a good indication of the differences in year and continent
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Hi All,
Thank you @dockattner for nice comment.
My ship comparing to Vasa is much much smaller... but still a lot of stuff can be used on Vasa, because rigging "practices" as @Steef66 mentioned are almost the same. Simply due to size of the ship rigging is bit more complex comparing to small pinnace... Vasa has also 3rd level of top yards.
Vasa seems to had a quite few crowfeets as Stephan also mentioned.
Highly recommend to look at Bjorn Landstrom publication - The Royal Warship Vasa.
Paul if you will need help with something just give a shout...I'm sure we will find the solution.
Thank you @Hoss6262.
In theory I could use running rigging. All blocks have sheave imitation, so yes... if I would like to lower the yard I just need to loose the lift rope from belaying pin, parrel and the yard can be pulled down. I'm not gluing any of the rope permanently, just by using proper "knot" on cleat or belaying pin will hold the rope in place.
All stays can be loose at any time as well, because lanyard rope is just fixed on the cleat or pin.
Same story with shrouds. Lanyard between deadeyes are just tight without glue. Just a combination of tension and knot will do the trick
If I don't need to use any glue to rig I will go just with proper knot
Once again in theory if I wouldn't glue masts together I would be able to remove all rigging at any time... in the matter of fact I've used just a dot of glue on the wood to hold them in place for better alignment while rigging so bond is cracking very easy
I guess just a precaution from my side if one day I will decide to dry dock the model for repairs
Thanks @Steef66 for your addition.
I think we all have the same "problem" that one day we've decided to build just a model of the ship and we've ended up by collecting books, research and digging for more information.
Never enough good books on the shelf
Cheers,
Matt
Thank you @dockattner for nice comment.
My ship comparing to Vasa is much much smaller... but still a lot of stuff can be used on Vasa, because rigging "practices" as @Steef66 mentioned are almost the same. Simply due to size of the ship rigging is bit more complex comparing to small pinnace... Vasa has also 3rd level of top yards.
Vasa seems to had a quite few crowfeets as Stephan also mentioned.
Highly recommend to look at Bjorn Landstrom publication - The Royal Warship Vasa.
Paul if you will need help with something just give a shout...I'm sure we will find the solution.
Thank you @Hoss6262.
In theory I could use running rigging. All blocks have sheave imitation, so yes... if I would like to lower the yard I just need to loose the lift rope from belaying pin, parrel and the yard can be pulled down. I'm not gluing any of the rope permanently, just by using proper "knot" on cleat or belaying pin will hold the rope in place.
All stays can be loose at any time as well, because lanyard rope is just fixed on the cleat or pin.
Same story with shrouds. Lanyard between deadeyes are just tight without glue. Just a combination of tension and knot will do the trick
If I don't need to use any glue to rig I will go just with proper knot
Once again in theory if I wouldn't glue masts together I would be able to remove all rigging at any time... in the matter of fact I've used just a dot of glue on the wood to hold them in place for better alignment while rigging so bond is cracking very easy
I guess just a precaution from my side if one day I will decide to dry dock the model for repairs
Thanks @Steef66 for your addition.
I think we all have the same "problem" that one day we've decided to build just a model of the ship and we've ended up by collecting books, research and digging for more information.
Never enough good books on the shelf
Cheers,
Matt
