Vasa - 1:65 DeAgostini [COMPLETED BUILD]

kirill4 said:
Good day Paul,
They looks nice and quite good in scale as well ! :)
Unsertain What did You mean, when say .... installed on every yards?...
as far as I could understood, they need to be installed on the main yards ( F and M) only , but not on the topsails and topgallants sails...
There(topsails anf topgallant) are no more than a couple of them probably need to be fitted?
Here they are not requered so many as for the main sails... :rolleyes:, due to these sails not store furled on the yard, but furled in vertical to the top / top mast....
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As far as I have been able to determine the practice of gathering the sails to the top and the mast predates the Vasa. I will be gathering toward the center but not exclusively to the top/mast. The practice of gathering the sails equally to the yards postdates the Vasa so I will be avoiding that practice as well. Of course, the number of staples is greatly reduced the higher up we go.

I'm surprised by your objection as you are a big fan of Anderson who I am following precisely. I also have support from Harland (Seamanship in the Age of Sail). With all that said my research continues and I am able to shift my approach as new information becomes available. Thanks, Kirill, for your interest in my build.
 
For me is still uncertain , when need to show so many gaskets on the upper yards...
on my model I did it mistaken...
but now I could suggest , for galleon with its specific piramide shaped sails, when bottom of the sail is much bigger than top, sails need to be stoved as You shown on the faragment of SOS picture... and so many gaskets as necessary for main sails , not necessary, but need to have two long ones , one of each end of the yradarms...
Here I follow guidance of J. Harland's" seamanship in the age of sails"
 
As I remember, in the book " The Galleon..." / if I not mistaken with the book, P.Kirsch gave his thouts and examples of difference in sails shapes of late 16-early17th sails plan ( which is much close to the galleon sails type ) and later 17th sails shapes ..
for the fast look there are not too big difference, but when read his comments , one could see what is the matter He is talkingvabout... I don't have this book under hand right now to post pictures...
 
kirill4 said:
What do You think abt 2A ?

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Excellent Kirill. Furling lines were certainly used in the 17th century and seemed to be more common on the topsails and topgallants. But when was the transition to gaskets (depicted in 2B)? Surely during the 17th century...

I have never seen a Vasa model shown with sails gathered to the mast. Kalmar Nykel shows topsails and topgallants gathered partially to the mast but also using gaskets - perhaps that would be a nice compromise.
 
dockattner said:
As far as I have been able to determine the practice of gathering the sails to the top and the mast predates the Vasa. I will be gathering toward the center but not exclusively to the top/mast. The practice of gathering the sails equally to the yards postdates the Vasa so I will be avoiding that practice as well. Of course, the number of staples is greatly reduced the higher up we go.

I'm surprised by your objection as you are a big fan of Anderson who I am following precisely. I also have support from Harland (Seamanship in the Age of Sail). With all that said my research continues and I am able to shift my approach as new information becomes available. Thanks, Kirill, for your interest in my build.
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Perhaps farthelling predates Wasa in Sweden, but I just showed you an English engraving from 1635 which shows farthelling. ;) Farthelling was required when sails have a pronounced trapedzoidal shape, such as early men-of-war have on their topsails.
 
Paul,
Sorry, in my 3217 I meаnt , same as You said -" gathered partially to the mast..."
To the yard and mast partially of couse , not to the mast only... :))) sorry...
Question was, do we need to show many rings for the gaskets on the upper yards or not... in Vasa case , or in common ,for the vessel with Vasa's sails shape?
Or just follow picture 2A in Harland book , and to fitt a couple of them as a long line gaskets , annd it will be sufficient for the upper sails to secure them to the yard and vertically to the top mast-mast top?
As Kurt said -"... Farthelling was required when sails have a pronounced trapedzoidal shapе..."
Another words, if sail supposed to be farthelled, how many gaskets than need to be fitted on the yard... ? Two ,which will work from both side of the yard to the center and than dowm... or more?
Or non at all ... seamen could bring them when it will be necessary to furling top sail...?
 
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As I understood, 2A -commomn old fashion 17th arrangements for the topsails , 2B common case ,just old fashion gaskets...such we could see on almost every VdV drawings ?
interesting that there are mentioned 2 C and 2D ... never thought ,it could be like that !...:)))
 
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Fragment of VdV drawing .... it looks like not 100 % of Vasa case?
I could say , clear there is variant 2B (after Harland) , when gaskets fitted on every yards...
*Topgallant furled entire to the yard,no vertical part/ no farthelling !
*Topgallant sheets act as topsail lifts(as Vasa museum model has them , but not as Ab Hoving pinass version designed)...etc. as usually , VdV gives us a lot of photografic precised detailes! :)))
In particular, look, how the anchor shown - secured in position, block for heaving up anchor removed already...

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kirill4 said:
Calmar Nykel replica 1625...
rigging arrangements is very close to Vasa...
I think it would be intersting in respect of sails furling to see how it is reproduced in our days...
There are a lot of intersting things... lowered top masts, disarmed topgallants, furled sails in the wayvwe told above....etc.

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Have been following this discussion as I am interested for my build but I am not up with the terminology, which part is the gasket?
So these images of furled sails is the conclusion that this what is correct for the period late 1500s to early 1600s or perhaps a layman's explanation for me would be great thank you, maybe I will be more knowledgeable once I eventually get to this part after some reading.
 
Richie said:
Have been following this discussion as I am interested for my build but I am not up with the terminology, which part is the gasket?
So these images of furled sails is the conclusion that this what is correct for the period late 1500s to early 1600s or perhaps a layman's explanation for me would be great thank you, maybe I will be more knowledgeable once I eventually get to this part after some reading.
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The gasket is the line which holds the furled sail up against the yardarm. It's usually a spiral rope wound around both the yard and the bunch up sail cloth. Sails in this early time period were furled at the bottom of the yard, not on the top as is done with 19th century ships.
 
Good day Daniel,
I could suppose, this is just intermediate stage of sail furling... which was just fixed by camera shot... but final stage - it will be tight furled to the yard like the main sail on main mast... ...
This is a show vessel... crew could left sail in such condition for demonstration or educational purposes... I think in stormy weather they will act diferently...:)
 
kirill4 said:
Good day Daniel,
I could suppose, this is just intermediate stage of sail furling... which was just fixed by camera shot... but final stage - it will be tight furled to the yard like the main sail on main mast... ...
This is a show vessel... crew could left sail in such condition for demonstration or educational purposes... I think in stormy weather they will act diferently...:)
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Thank you, Kirill, I also am at the stage of rigging the yards and sails on my Vasa. This is a great and informative discussion, and I can now see the need to put a copy of Anderson on my reader.
 
Richie said:
Have been following this discussion as I am interested for my build but I am not up with the terminology, which part is the gasket?
So these images of furled sails is the conclusion that this what is correct for the period late 1500s to early 1600s or perhaps a layman's explanation for me would be great thank you, maybe I will be more knowledgeable once I eventually get to this part after some reading.
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What Kurt said, but I'll add some additional bits. The gasket is the rope. I have not shown gaskets yet in this post. What I have shown is a staple plus two rings on each staple. The gasket is tied to one of the rings - passes under the furled sail to the opposite ring - and is then tied off using something called a timber hitch. Kurt is describing a long gasket which is wrapped in a spiral along the length of the yardarm holding the furled sail in place. It would not require as many (or perhaps any) staples/rings...
 
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