Vasa - 1:65 DeAgostini [COMPLETED BUILD]

Heinrich said:
Now you know - being a healthcare professional is far easier than being a good model builder. Soon the professions will become the means of relaxation and the ship building the serious stuff! :)
Click to expand...
I know exactly what you mean. I developed a rule that when things get too serious, I stop working on the ship and do something else. I always go back eventually. When I do, I find renewed interest in the hobby. I am so glad to have found something to occupy my mind this way.
 
dockattner said:
Thanks, everyone, for your comforting words and for appreciating how frustrating this can be.

To respond to a few comments - yes, I can post a picture but it will be a bit. For the time being picture a yard that should only be 33-35 cm long built to 45 cmRedface.

How did others solve this? I stopped following DeAgostini builds of the Vasa quite a long time ago because I'm no longer building the DeAgostini Vasa (no offence toward DeAg or those who choose to build the kit as provided). But I did go back this morning and looked to see what others did. Several just put the yard in too long (I won't share their pictures as I would not want to disrespect their choice - some of these are quite nice builds). Others seems to have corrected the problem albeit only in part. What is required is a rather aggressive shortening (if I am right to place the highest trust in the museum plans and the 1:10 version). The yard for the lateen sail should be shorter than the yard for the main course on the Vasa - mine was considerably longer.

And yes, the pinot was an efficient salve made better by the fact that my wife shared a glass with me. She doesn't take me as seriously as I take myself so she is a good counselor. Funniest thing she said: I think you were just compensating...

Putting the ship away was a good choice. I didn't really have a choice but to start over - but that feels better today than it did in the moment of discovery.

Onward!
Click to expand...
Good morning Paul. What’s a ship without a major redo- builds that fantastic love/hate relationship you have with her. Loved your posts- awesome approach to a modeling curve ball and should be extended to life itself as we know many curve balls come at as. Your admiral knows you well, good counsel there. ;) .

To see the lighter side of a frustrating situation (that’s all these redos are) and have humour speaks volumes Paul. Cheers Grant
 
Good day Paul,
I hope You succesfully redo your mizzen yard and sail, just is a sad step back...but ok, sometimes shit happened... hope all other sails and yards are correct!
There was sound a good idea to use it as spare "wood", which could be shown stored on deck...
I always watch Your building reports with great interest!
Wish You all the Best!
Kirill
 
Hi Paul,

Sorry to hear that the mizzen yard is out of scale. It's hard to understand how a kit manufacturer could get it that wrong.

To help and as a guide, my Billing's Vasa has a mizzen yard length of 31.5 cm and is at a scale of 1/75. The De Agostini Vasa is at a scale of 1/65, so in theory, the correct length for your mizzen yard at your scale should be:

Length of mizzen yard = 31.5 x 75 / 65 = 36.35 cm = 14.31 inches.

So your guess at the length was not too far off. While this might help with getting the length correct, it doesn't help with the amount of work required. Very frustrating and a lot of time required to remedy the error, but as everyone has said, we all learn from our mistakes (albeit the manufacturer's mistake)!!!!

Oh, by the way Paul, I remember when rigging my mizzen sail and yard, the issue of which side of the mizzen mast is it rigged, came up. I still have not had a satisfactory answer to this question. I have mounted mine on the port side of the mizzen mast, which is fine for a starbord tack (ie wind over the starbord beam), but what happens for a port tack? The sailor's could not have left the mizzen yard on the port side as the sail would have been pushed by the wind onto the mast, so somehow, I assume the yard must have been moved onto the starboard side of the mast. To do this, I can only see this being done by lowering the yard, moving it aft of the mizzen mast, and then moving it to the starbord side??? The various lines for the sail would get tangled and it's not a small sail - I just don't know how it was mechanically done.

On a more modern sailing yacht which has a mizzen mast, say a ketch, the mizzen sail or 'spanker', is all aft of the mizzen mast (usually mounted to a boom and maybe a gaff at the head of the sail) and so the sail can rotate across the ship as the tack changes from port to starboard and back again. This however was not the arrangement of the Vasa where a significant portion of the yard and sail is forward of the mizzen mast.

So, in the end, you are going to have to make a decision as to whether your Vasa is on a port or a starbord tack.....

Regards,

PeterG
 
Last edited:
PeterG said:
Hi Paul,

Sorry to hear that the mizzen yard is out of scale. It's hard to understand how a kit manufacturer could get it that wrong.

To help and as a guide, my Billing's Vasa has a mizzen yard length of 31.5 cm and is at a scale of 1/75. The De Agostini Vasa is at a scale of 1/65, so in theory, the correct length for your mizzen yard at your scale should be:

Length of mizzen yard = 31.5 x 75 / 65 = 36.35 cm = 14.31 inches.

So your guess at the length was not too far off. While this might help with getting the length correct, it doesn't help with the amount of work required. Very frustrating and a lot of time required to remedy the error, but as everyone has said, we all learn from our mistakes (albeit the manufacturer's mistake)!!!!

Oh, by the way Paul, I remember when rigging my mizzen sail and yard, the issue of which side of the mizzen mast is it rigged, came up. I still have not had a satisfactory answer to this question. I have mounted mine on the port side of the mizzen mast, which is fine for a starbord tack (ie wind over the starbord beam), but what happens for a port tack? The sailor's could not have left the mizzen yard on the port side as the sail would have been pushed by the wind onto the mast, so somehow, I assume the yard must have been moved onto the starboard side of the mast. To do this, I can only see this being done by lowering the yard, moving it aft of the mizzen mast, and then moving it to the starbord side??? The various lines for the sail would get tangled and it's not a small sail - I just don't know how it was mechanically done.

On a more modern sailing yacht which has a mizzen mast, say a ketch, the mizzen sail or 'spanker', is all aft of the mizzen mast (usually mounted to a boom and maybe a gaff at the head of the sail) and so the sail can rotate across the ship as the tack changes from port to starboard and back again. This however was not the arrangement of the Vasa where a significant portion of the yard and sail is forward of the mizzen mast.

So, in the end, you are going to have to make a decision as to whether your Vasa is on a port or a starbord tack.....

Regards,

PeterG
Click to expand...
Thanks Peter. I remade the yard this weekend and it is 36 cm. Once I measured (and remeasured, and remeasured, and then after that I remeasured) I seem to have landed in the same place you did. I appreciate the confirmation.

I recall your discussion of this yard in actual use. I'm going to display my other yards/sails square to the long axis of the ship (that is, I will not be showing her under sail and moving - more of a wisp of a breeze sort of situation). I'll pick a side and at least make sure my 'wisp' corresponds in some way to how the mizzen is configured.

I say all this without attempting to shape a sail yet so it really is only a picture in my head right now. I'm still in my redo closet at present - about two weeks lost, but who's counting...(that would be me!).
 
I had to ROTF when I read, "Once I measured (and remeasured, and remeasured, and then after that I remeasured)". Not because I'm insensitive, but because I've been there and done that. You are not alone Paul! It's a shame, with your quality of work you can't use the first yard in some way. :p
 
Sorry to hear about the yard issue, had not been aware of that before with this kit! If it is any help, we do not know with certainty the actual length of the yard, only the length of the foot of the sail (16,45 meters), so you have some elbow room to make the call yourself. The maximum possible length is about 25 meters (393 mm), and the minimum length of the yard is probably at least 22 m (338 mm). We have discovered through modelling that the angle of the yard to the foot of the sail has to be less than 45 degrees, in order to fit the available space.

As regards side, the mizzen and its yard were shifted from side to side when the ship tacked or wore (by peaking up and passing the yard and sail abaft the mast), so that it would lie on the leeward side (to fill cleanly and minimize wear on the yard and mast). There is no sailing situation in which all of the yards with sails set would be trimmed square to the centerline. You might consider a little trim on one tack or the other. If the sails are furled, then the yards could be squared up, with the mizzen on whichever side it was last set.

Fred Hocker
Director of Research, Vasa Museum
 
Good discussion Paul, (despite your imposed difficulty in having to remake your mizzen sail/yards and rigging).

I was particularly interested in Dr Hocker's comments regarding the wearing of a 17th century ship and the transfer of the mizzen yard/sail from port to starboard when tacking. In fully understanding this, and I have no reason to doubt what Fred is saying, if you note the picture of my Vasa below, which is accurate for the Billings kit measurements for mizzen mast height plus mizzen yard length (with a scale of 1/75), you will note that the yard length is 31.5 cm (as indicated), but the height of deck to immediately below the mizzen top, is almost exactly 16 cm.

1660712936756.png

So, in real dimensions, the mizzen yard was about 31.5 x 75 (scale factor) = 23.62 metres or 77.49 feet (which is between Fred's range of 22 - 25 metres). The height from the poop deck to the base of the top on the mizzen is almost exactly 16 cm (16 x 75 = 12 metres or 39.3 feet). To swing the mizzen yard abaft the mizzen mast when coming about (tacking) therefore, there is only spare room of 12 - 23.62/2 = (mizzen height distance to move the yard beneath the top minus half the mizzen yard length) = 0.19 metres or 0.63 feet clearance to swing it around the mast = 7 inches (or 3.5 inches at either end).

Wow!! - That's tight when you are playing on a 'rocking and rolling ship' with a yard that probably weighs at least a ton, has a full sail attached and a mass of rigging lines connected. I guess there is some leeway in the above measurements and it could be made to work, but I wouldn't want to be part of the crew maneuvering it around!! I suppose there would be some deck tackle to pull the base of the yard aft and then across past the base of the mast (there's a detail opportunity for you Paul!!)

In fact it is possible the yard length was on the smaller end of Dr Hocker's estimate (that is 22 metres), and certainly this would give a little more wriggle room for error, but it would still be a tight and dangerous process. I guess that's how they did things in those days...

Best Regards

PeterG
 
Hi Peter,

The Billing kit may not be very accurate in the rigging dimensions, but you are right, shifting the mizzen is a hairy process. On the modern reconstruction Kalmar Nyckel, which represents a ship of 1638, we have practiced this manoeuvre extensively, first at the pier on a calm day, and then for real at sea. It goes something like this:

1. Douse the mizzen sail and brail it up to the yard
2. Slack the parrel truss (so the yard has more freedom to swing away from the mast)
3. Peak the yard by hauling the topping lift, until the yard is as close to vertical as possible, with the heel just in front of the mast.
4. Unhook the tacks from the heel of the yard
5. Pull the heel of the yard aft and around the mast (muscle power here, although not as much as you would think)
6. Reattach the tacks
7. Ease the topping lift while checking the tacks
8. Take up the parrel truss
9. Set the sail and trim (cast off the brails and sheet home)

With practice, we were able to do all of this with four people in about a minute. Vasa's mizzen is much larger, so would probably take more people. For it to work, there has to be enough swing in the halliard to allow the mizzen to be peaked and manoeuvred around the yard - I think the Billing kit has the sail set too close to the top for this.

One of the question we have about the Vasa rig has to do with the length of the yard. The foot of the sail is known, from the surviving bonnet. It suggests a very long yard, which makes for a tight squeeze into the available space for shifting the sail. We are still fiddling with this in the reconstruction of the rig.

Fred
 
Many thanks Dr Hocker. You have explained the mizzen tack process perfectly. I had forgotten about the use of the brails which would effectively furl the sail and contain it while the tack was being performed. Obviously this would make the process a bit simpler.

Once a crew were experienced and practiced in the manoeuvre, as you have demonstrated, it evidently could be done effectively and relatively quickly, but it doesn’t take away from the difficulty and danger associated with swinging such a large piece of equipment onboard a moving platform.

Although too, as you say, the Billing kit may not be as accurate as it could be, but to their credit, they are close (as opposed to the 25% error in mizzen yard length as Paul has pointed out in his kit). To also give them the benefit of the doubt, when initially designed, the kit had to work with only the available research. You and your team at the Museum have done such a marvellous job of filling in many of these gaps in our knowledge in the interim that such dimensions now could be better defined.

Many thanks,

Best Regards,

PeterG
 
Ooh! I love it when smart people visit my build log!

Just for fun I went to my model just now and was able to replicate the maneuver precisely as described (not using rigging - just my hands). The one thing I noticed is that the mizzen top forces the yard quite far from the mast. The parrel would have to be very slack.

IMG_8399.JPG
 
fred.hocker said:
Hi Peter,

The Billing kit may not be very accurate in the rigging dimensions, but you are right, shifting the mizzen is a hairy process. On the modern reconstruction Kalmar Nyckel, which represents a ship of 1638, we have practiced this manoeuvre extensively, first at the pier on a calm day, and then for real at sea. It goes something like this:

1. Douse the mizzen sail and brail it up to the yard
2. Slack the parrel truss (so the yard has more freedom to swing away from the mast)
3. Peak the yard by hauling the topping lift, until the yard is as close to vertical as possible, with the heel just in front of the mast.
4. Unhook the tacks from the heel of the yard
5. Pull the heel of the yard aft and around the mast (muscle power here, although not as much as you would think)
6. Reattach the tacks
7. Ease the topping lift while checking the tacks
8. Take up the parrel truss
9. Set the sail and trim (cast off the brails and sheet home)

With practice, we were able to do all of this with four people in about a minute. Vasa's mizzen is much larger, so would probably take more people. For it to work, there has to be enough swing in the halliard to allow the mizzen to be peaked and manoeuvred around the yard - I think the Billing kit has the sail set too close to the top for this.

One of the question we have about the Vasa rig has to do with the length of the yard. The foot of the sail is known, from the surviving bonnet. It suggests a very long yard, which makes for a tight squeeze into the available space for shifting the sail. We are still fiddling with this in the reconstruction of the rig.

Fred
Click to expand...
That looks like fun! I can only imagine managing the sail through a jibe on a windy day at sea!
 
dockattner said:
Ooh! I love it when smart people visit my build log!

Just for fun I went to my model just now and was able to replicate the maneuver precisely as described (not using rigging - just my hands). The one thing I noticed is that the mizzen top forces the yard quite far from the mast. The parrel would have to be very slack.
Click to expand...
That is in fact the case. The parrel is set up with a truss running through a two-hole deadeye so that it can be slacked way off. It also helps if the sheave for the halliard tie is well above the yard, so that the yard is free to swing well away from the mast.

Fred
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top