VOC ship The Prins Willem (scale 1:75) Year 1651

Good afternoon Stephan. A question about glueing the bolt rope ; when the glue is dry is the sail still “ply” enough to be furled if you want to? I am taking close interest in how you are making these as I plan to do sails (some furled) for my Bounty. Thanks for all this detail. Cheers Grant
Good afternoon Grant,
I think I gave an answer to your question in Post #1000 Hope that explains a lot. (the glue is getting a little flexible of the water too.)
(post 1000 is a worth a little party :) Bottle)

I know you're asking Stephan, but FYI I used a fabric glue (Liquid Stitch though there are others) to glue my bolt rope on and it stays perfectly flexible.
Good advice, I gonna try that before I go further.
this one?
1744202714948.jpeg
 
I have search for liquid stitches and it's available in the Netherlands. Just the price.....
It's textiellijm or in English fabric glue. So there are alternatieve products in the Netherlands available. And then there was the light in my head, I have in my collection a bottle. I made another test with this glue. Not diluted. (Looks like white glue and is like glass when dried). W'll see the outcome. It was easier to supply, so that was a advantage.
 
Good afternoon Grant,
I think I gave an answer to your question in Post #1000 Hope that explains a lot. (the glue is getting a little flexible of the water too.)
(post 1000 is a worth a little party :) Bottle)


Good advice, I gonna try that before I go further.
this one?
View attachment 512464
Good morning Stephan. I agree a little celebration is in order. Arlene and I will have a drink on this tonight- a little early right now ROTF . Cheers Grant
 
I think the testing is over. And I have found a favourite to glue the bolt rope to the sail.

I had first used wood glue from Pattex wood glue 3D €2.99 Action (which is a discount shop in some parts of Europe), which I diluted slightly to glue the bolt rope to it. Processing went well and the iron on after gluing to make it adhere quickly.
Advantages: it leaves few marks and these can still be removed well before the glue has hardened. (within the hour)
Disadvantages: it comes off quickly if you get the sails wet and want to deform. Fine for domed sails but not for salvaged sails as it is less flexible than the following glues.

Next glue was Cre-ation textile glue from the Action. Great glue to work with and also dries quickly with the iron.
Advantages: Adheres well and you don't have to put the body against it in 1 go. Remove leftovers quickly before curing. Stays on reasonably to well with wetting (if cured properly) And dries invisibly.
And the price is an advantage. €0.99 for a bottle!!!! More flexible than wood glue.
Disadvantages: actually none.

Bison textile glue. We will soon forget about that one. Nice stuff for gluing a piece of fabric to your jeans, but not suitable for what we do. It's a contact adhesive and that means you have to lubricate both parts, leave to dry and then join them together. That doesn't work. €7.19 at the Hubo (hardware store)

And my favourite is still the ‘Pattex 100% repair gel’ and is also available at the Action for only €1.98 which is a benefit. The Liquid stitches which comes from the US costs €19.95 and from what I understand it is similar to the Cre-ation textile glue. Which are derived from the PVA glue with different composition. (PVA is white wood glue)
The repair gel is transparent and behaves a bit like apple syrup. It does not thread and you can apply it with a small spatula to the edge of the sail just fine and then push the bolt rope against it. If you do this in sections, it can be done very securely and without too much glue residue that might be visible. It is very flexible after a day of drying however, like the Cre-ation, it does sometimes let go after water and fumbling. However, you can fix this just fine when it dries again with this glue. Be careful though, as the stickiness is quite a thing. You'll be stuck with sticky fingers or material in no time, soiling your sailcloth is possible if you're not careful.
The flexibility makes this my favourite for furled or secured sails.
I will also use the Cre-ation for full sails, partly because of the less mess. Both adhesives are equally strong, which makes little difference. The difference is in processing and flexibility. But also price. The gel is only 8 ml while the Cre-ation is 100 ml.

I am now making all the sail cloths. First cut the Japanese paper to size, then painting and drying piece by piece And then making a sail.
One is ready and now there are a few more to go. That will take me a while.

These are pictures of the actual sails. No more testing.

IMG_5211.JPGIMG_5212.JPGIMG_5213.JPG

And as I mentioned earlier, I will not paint them all in the exact same colour but by mixing some titanium white underneath with each one. Will I render each sail in a different tone of colour.
 
I think the testing is over. And I have found a favourite to glue the bolt rope to the sail.

I had first used wood glue from Pattex wood glue 3D €2.99 Action (which is a discount shop in some parts of Europe), which I diluted slightly to glue the bolt rope to it. Processing went well and the iron on after gluing to make it adhere quickly.
Advantages: it leaves few marks and these can still be removed well before the glue has hardened. (within the hour)
Disadvantages: it comes off quickly if you get the sails wet and want to deform. Fine for domed sails but not for salvaged sails as it is less flexible than the following glues.

Next glue was Cre-ation textile glue from the Action. Great glue to work with and also dries quickly with the iron.
Advantages: Adheres well and you don't have to put the body against it in 1 go. Remove leftovers quickly before curing. Stays on reasonably to well with wetting (if cured properly) And dries invisibly.
And the price is an advantage. €0.99 for a bottle!!!! More flexible than wood glue.
Disadvantages: actually none.

Bison textile glue. We will soon forget about that one. Nice stuff for gluing a piece of fabric to your jeans, but not suitable for what we do. It's a contact adhesive and that means you have to lubricate both parts, leave to dry and then join them together. That doesn't work. €7.19 at the Hubo (hardware store)

And my favourite is still the ‘Pattex 100% repair gel’ and is also available at the Action for only €1.98 which is a benefit. The Liquid stitches which comes from the US costs €19.95 and from what I understand it is similar to the Cre-ation textile glue. Which are derived from the PVA glue with different composition. (PVA is white wood glue)
The repair gel is transparent and behaves a bit like apple syrup. It does not thread and you can apply it with a small spatula to the edge of the sail just fine and then push the bolt rope against it. If you do this in sections, it can be done very securely and without too much glue residue that might be visible. It is very flexible after a day of drying however, like the Cre-ation, it does sometimes let go after water and fumbling. However, you can fix this just fine when it dries again with this glue. Be careful though, as the stickiness is quite a thing. You'll be stuck with sticky fingers or material in no time, soiling your sailcloth is possible if you're not careful.
The flexibility makes this my favourite for furled or secured sails.
I will also use the Cre-ation for full sails, partly because of the less mess. Both adhesives are equally strong, which makes little difference. The difference is in processing and flexibility. But also price. The gel is only 8 ml while the Cre-ation is 100 ml.

I am now making all the sail cloths. First cut the Japanese paper to size, then painting and drying piece by piece And then making a sail.
One is ready and now there are a few more to go. That will take me a while.

These are pictures of the actual sails. No more testing.

View attachment 512911View attachment 512912View attachment 512913

And as I mentioned earlier, I will not paint them all in the exact same colour but by mixing some titanium white underneath with each one. Will I render each sail in a different tone of colour.
At the end you got your wanted results. That looks nice, Stephan. Hope to see you model soon with these Japanese Paper Sail.
Regards, Peter
 
Excellent overview of the extensive testing with different glues/paper/cloth you conducted!!

This will be of immense value to others as they tackle the difficult job of making realistic sails.

Sails and rigging are one of the reasons I stick to Navy Board/Admiralty style (with neither). I am in awe of those who do it as well as you do.

Maybe this discussion needs a thread of its own, for people searching for "How to make quality sails"?
 
Fascinating following your thought processes and workmanship Stephan. I always learn something from your posts. Your “experiments” with the results is valuable information for all of us.
Thanks Roger, that's why I documented it here, to share my toughts so we all can learn something.

At the end you got your wanted results. That looks nice, Stephan. Hope to see you model soon with these Japanese Paper Sail.
Regards, Peter
Thanks Peter, you will see them sooner before they are attached to the ship. That last one will take a lot of time because I also need to make a lot of rope.

Excellent overview of the extensive testing with different glues/paper/cloth you conducted!!

This will be of immense value to others as they tackle the difficult job of making realistic sails.

Sails and rigging are one of the reasons I stick to Navy Board/Admiralty style (with neither). I am in awe of those who do it as well as you do.

Maybe this discussion needs a thread of its own, for people searching for "How to make quality sails"?
Thanks Brad, I'm happy that people here use my research. Your Idea is very good, I will think of a separate log about qualty sailmaking and using paper.
 
I think the testing is over. And I have found a favourite to glue the bolt rope to the sail.

I had first used wood glue from Pattex wood glue 3D €2.99 Action (which is a discount shop in some parts of Europe), which I diluted slightly to glue the bolt rope to it. Processing went well and the iron on after gluing to make it adhere quickly.
Advantages: it leaves few marks and these can still be removed well before the glue has hardened. (within the hour)
Disadvantages: it comes off quickly if you get the sails wet and want to deform. Fine for domed sails but not for salvaged sails as it is less flexible than the following glues.

Next glue was Cre-ation textile glue from the Action. Great glue to work with and also dries quickly with the iron.
Advantages: Adheres well and you don't have to put the body against it in 1 go. Remove leftovers quickly before curing. Stays on reasonably to well with wetting (if cured properly) And dries invisibly.
And the price is an advantage. €0.99 for a bottle!!!! More flexible than wood glue.
Disadvantages: actually none.

Bison textile glue. We will soon forget about that one. Nice stuff for gluing a piece of fabric to your jeans, but not suitable for what we do. It's a contact adhesive and that means you have to lubricate both parts, leave to dry and then join them together. That doesn't work. €7.19 at the Hubo (hardware store)

And my favourite is still the ‘Pattex 100% repair gel’ and is also available at the Action for only €1.98 which is a benefit. The Liquid stitches which comes from the US costs €19.95 and from what I understand it is similar to the Cre-ation textile glue. Which are derived from the PVA glue with different composition. (PVA is white wood glue)
The repair gel is transparent and behaves a bit like apple syrup. It does not thread and you can apply it with a small spatula to the edge of the sail just fine and then push the bolt rope against it. If you do this in sections, it can be done very securely and without too much glue residue that might be visible. It is very flexible after a day of drying however, like the Cre-ation, it does sometimes let go after water and fumbling. However, you can fix this just fine when it dries again with this glue. Be careful though, as the stickiness is quite a thing. You'll be stuck with sticky fingers or material in no time, soiling your sailcloth is possible if you're not careful.
The flexibility makes this my favourite for furled or secured sails.
I will also use the Cre-ation for full sails, partly because of the less mess. Both adhesives are equally strong, which makes little difference. The difference is in processing and flexibility. But also price. The gel is only 8 ml while the Cre-ation is 100 ml.

I am now making all the sail cloths. First cut the Japanese paper to size, then painting and drying piece by piece And then making a sail.
One is ready and now there are a few more to go. That will take me a while.

These are pictures of the actual sails. No more testing.

View attachment 512911View attachment 512912View attachment 512913

And as I mentioned earlier, I will not paint them all in the exact same colour but by mixing some titanium white underneath with each one. Will I render each sail in a different tone of colour.
Hi Stephan, do you also use different shades of colour per sail?
This as sails were also repaired resulting in colour differences.
 
Hi Stephan, do you also use different shades of colour per sail?
This as sails were also repaired resulting in colour differences.
That's possible, maybe I will on those that wil be full. Repair spots wil be extra material on the cloth.
But on the other side it's possible to ad colour tones to the ready sail to make it old. I'll try that on the test sail.
 
Hey Stephan,
That was quite the journey you undertook to come to your current materials and process.
There are quite a few variables you took into consideration; you easily could have ended up with unsatisfactory results. And if you would go down the path of changing your parameters, boy, that could have ended very messy.
Looking forward to the end result of this "little" side project.
Johan
 
And the last sail is hanging to dry. It's the biggest sail. Main topsail.
Tomorrow I'll start making details on the sails and cut them out. That's a precision job. So I will take the time for that.

IMG_5215.JPGIMG_5216.JPG

I used 4 sheets of Japanese Paper (Kashmir 11gm2) 48x94 cm.
about 200 ml of paint
 
And the last sail is hanging to dry. It's the biggest sail. Main topsail.
Tomorrow I'll start making details on the sails and cut them out. That's a precision job. So I will take the time for that.

View attachment 513231View attachment 513232

I used 4 sheets of Japanese Paper (Kashmir 11gm2) 48x94 cm.
about 200 ml of paint
Hi Stee66, can I ask you a question ....Grazie, for the sail creation that you are doing, as a reference what helps you as documentation? Frank
 
Sorry that I posted the question wrong, I was referring to the size and accessories.Frank
Herman Ketting wrote a book about the 1653 shipmodel of the Prins Willem that displays in the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. There are also drawings made of this ship.
Also RC. Anderson, James Leest, v. YK, Witsen and all drawings and paintings from father and son "van de Velde"
There is a lot of info about this ship.
 
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