LE ROCHEFORT

Uwe: I have those plans. I agree, copies are necessary. I’ve made dozens of frame copies for projects I’m working on. The problem with this planset layout is that the frames overlap. If you cut out one frame and make copies, you’ve ruined the two adjacent frame drawings and they can no longer be used. I understand the cost limitations in providing individual drawings of each frame, but that would be the best solution. You can try to copy individual sections of the plan covering each individual frame, without cutting up the sheet, but you run the risk of distorting the copy and cause creases in the plansheets. This is in no way a criticism of Mr. Delacroix’s drawings. Just a statement of fact.

Don: I agree with Uwe. Using the sander has vastly improved your futtock joints. More later!
 
DocBlake said:
Uwe: I have those plans. I agree, copies are necessary. I’ve made dozens of frame copies for projects I’m working on. The problem with this planset layout is that the frames overlap. If you cut out one frame and make copies, you’ve ruined the two adjacent frame drawings and they can no longer be used. I understand the cost limitations in providing individual drawings of each frame, but that would be the best solution. You can try to copy individual sections of the plan covering each individual frame, without cutting up the sheet, but you run the risk of distorting the copy and cause creases in the plansheets. This is in no way a criticism of Mr. Delacroix’s drawings. Just a statement of fact.

Don: I agree with Uwe. Using the sander has vastly improved your futtock joints. More later!
Click to expand...
Hallo Dave, I am making the second way you describing, with putting the area you want to make a copy on the glas of the copy-machine, and for the next frame you move a little bit your original drawing and make the next copy of the next frame.
In this way I am every time making my paper copies for the frames......and usually without distorting the copy - This can be checked with holding both (the original and copy overlapped in front of a light and looking through)
Problem of the overlapping or not overlapping frames on the original drawings will be a pure commercial one - one or two (and for bigger ships several more) plates are additional paper costs and postage weight. At the end the customer has to pay for it. A pure question of how much will the customer pay for the additional costs?
It is now better, in the past there were plansets with only a half of a frame - it is every time a compromise.......

A short question to Don:
Did you had already a look at the different building logs of the Rochefort in Gérards french forum? I do not want to send you now to another forum, but you can see in some of the posted photos exactly the frames of your ship, and you can maybe partly identify something which could be a help for you.
5500.forumactif.org

Le Rochefort 1787 - Plans Gérard Delacroix

Architecture navale traditionnelle et modélisme d'arsenal
5500.forumactif.org 5500.forumactif.org
F.e. in post #4 of the building log of the member Michel M you can see a very good photo of your famous frame No.1..... so you get a feeling and can imagine this frame much better
5500.forumactif.org

Le Rochefort par MichelM au 1/36

Bonjour, Après la tranche de l'Anémone, j'ai mis en chantier le Rochefort. Il sera en charpente avec le gréement. Quelques couples réalisés. Michel
5500.forumactif.org 5500.forumactif.org
 
hold on just a minute before getting into the help for don.

what I said and thought it was clear
rather than chasing a problem sometimes it is better to abandon the method for another before you get to deep into the build
my example of Portia's method was to build a rough framed hull and power sand it to it's final shape she was criticized for her methods being told that is not how wooded ship models should be built. Hahn was made fun of for building hulls upside down in a jig and the use of little people on board the models finally he was run out of town.

Dave's reply of this way of thinking is still alive in some circles. So rather than use a method as a weapon to disgrace someone it should be presented as a workable alternative.

these comments were not pointing at anyone they were general observations of the ship modeling community at large.

i find the method don is using right now to build frames is much harder than building a frame blank, glue the pattern to the blank and cut out the entire frame at once.
this hobby is a thinking mans game. That is pre-planning is a good start. Rather than try to follow a "this is how it should be done" method try different ways that you are comfortable with.
 
what I am going to do is hi-jack dons build log to show a different approach to building frames

then I can remove the posts to clean up dons build log

so here goes

p1.jpg
to build this frame I set it up with an offset line the actual size of the frame are the inner lines the blue and red lines are the frame blanks. This will be a sistered frame.

p2.jpg

using cardboard I cut patterns for the blanks

p4.jpg

using the patterns I traced them out on framing stock

p5.jpg

now I cut out the blanks, note I just cut the blanks apart and did not try to cut a straight edge.

p6.jpg

I get a clean straight edge by sanding it and not by trying to cut it
 
you can use a table saw to cut the blanks but the slightest movement will result in a cut like this where you start out on the line but a wiggle in holding the piece will bow the cut.

p7.jpg

you got to be good with a saw or these are the kind of results you might get. The movement is so slight you my not even realize you moved the piece.

p8.jpgp8A.jpgp9.jpgp10.jpg
 
this is why I will always sand the joining ends so I get a fit like this

p12.jpg

now with all the blanks cut and the ends sanded I can build a blank

p11.jpg

p14.jpgp15.jpgp16.jpgp17.jpgpc1.jpg
 
Last edited:
once I have a blank I rubber cement the frame pattern to the blank

p13.jpg

using a scroll saw or bandsaw i cut out the frame following the offset line

pf1.jpgpf2.jpg

I do not have to be all that accurate because the final step is back to the sander

ps1.jpgps2.jpgps3.jpg

I still leave material on the frame to give me a + or - when setting the frames in the hull. Like Portia I give the hull a final sanding and shaping once it is all assembled. All I did was take the Hahn and Portia methods and refined them.

so that is what I was trying to say there are a lot of ways to accomplish a task and you do not have to adhere to some traditional methods just because that is how real ships were built

the end
 
Last edited:
many times I set out on a build to find it is not working and I scrap it and try something else. In building these models you can not be shy of scrapping methods and materials to start again and again.

I got comments on some of the builds I do as to how tight or accurate all the joinery is. Well what I do not say it might of taken me 4 tries to get that.
 
Hi all your comments and help are wonderful, now to DAVE STEVENS point first a comment (my daughter BLESS HER HEART) saw be bying many power tools in the last 2 years her comment is why are you bying so many power tools you made the models before without these) my answer was simple 3 or 4 years ago I was able to see with out a magnifer now wear it all the time my hands were steady not now my hand, eye, brain coordination function much better then now) so dave i have tried this method not only is it much harder for me but totally inaccrate(JUST ME) no excuse just have to adept to different ways to suite my needs and you are very correct in saying if something does not work try a different one, need the use of a disk sander to make the joints, use of a mill to do the notches using pins instead standing to get the right fit, and on and on, so far as i will show in 2 pictures i am getting the hang of it using THIS METHOD RIGHT NOW if it becomes more dificult i will try a different method, some age better then others and i thank the LORD FOR WHAT HE HAS GIVEN ME NOW, now i see a lot of problems for me down the road for sanding the frames after installing on the keel, worried on how fragil the frameing is how to stablize the hull etc will prbally have to try many different ways to do it, BUT THAT IS DOWN THE ROAD NOW FRAMES, and a lot of redos on previous frames to keep the method consistent even tough the are good makes so here i show the progress, AND PLEASE ALL COMMENTS AND CONSTRUTIVE CRITISIMS ARE REALLY APPRECIATED AND DESPERATLY NEEDED20200121_190043.jpg20200121_190247.jpg
 
ALSO TO UWES POINT I DO NOT USE THE ORIGANALS THEY ARE SAVED LIKE DAE SAID I HAVE MADE MANY, MANEY COPIES AS IT TAKES 4 cut outs to do 1 frame unless i am doing it wrong, witch i do not mind, as always MANY thanks to all and yes i agree with UWES COMMENTS. THANKS AGAIN Don PS JUST ANOTHER THOUGHT WHEN I STARTED THIS PROJECT I ANTICAPATED A COMPLETE NBEW LEARNING PROCESS AND IT IS BUT WITH HELP IT WILL GET THERE
 
Hi Don

Another idea you could try is to work on top of a white board and place magnets on top of the frame parts to hold them instead of pins.Your frame parts are probably thin enough for the magnets to be still effective

Regards

Nigel
 
Hi Don,

this frame looks much better than your first try's. I would replace the left paper, because it's not fitting with the rest of the frame.
I think you're now on a good way, to build the following frames.

Isn't it possible to glue the frames with rubber cement on the paper? So you can be shure, that nothing mooves during the build of the frame
 
looking at the frame photos you are actually using a modified blank construction version. It is a good idea to leave yourself a lot of extra material on the frames as you build them.

now i see a lot of problems for me down the road for sanding the frames after installing on the keel, worried on how fragile the framing is how to stabilize the hull etc will probably have to try many different ways to do it, BUT THAT IS DOWN THE ROAD NOW FRAMES, and a lot of redos on previous frames to keep the method consistent even tough the are good makes so here i show the progress,
don

lets review the methods

Hahn was an engineer by trade and he saw the problem with finishing a delicate hull so his solution was to build the hull in a jig to hold everything in place. He extended the tops of the frames for a reason, first because to set the hull down into a jig obstructs the finish of the outer hull, you have to remove the hull from the jig to finish it. Secondly it is difficult to build every frame exactly to the level of the sheer line or to the bottom of the caprail. So by extending the frames above the finished tops of the frames a nice curved sheer can be cut and finished.

i do not know how you plan on building the hull in a jig or not. If you are not using a jig the only place holding the frames in place is where they sit on the keel. That will be a very delicate hull.
The frame blank and jig method invented by Hahn did use a lot of wood, the reason it was considered not practical because the builders were using very expensive wood like Boxwood and Swiss pearwood, 2/3s of the wood was wasted. This group of builders insisted you have to use these expensive woods rather than a less expensive wood where the cost of waste was of little concern. So they came up with a method of cutting each and every frame part and assemble a "finished" frame in the hull. That way there was little to no final sanding of the hull. This methods also worked but the builder had to very very exact all along the process.

What it looks like your doing is to use the best of both ideas, build up a frame and give it a final finish once the hull is built. To do it this way you have to stabilize the hull.
make the keel deeper than on the plan and cut deep notches in the top of the keel for the floor timbers then use a filler block between the floors to beef up the joint between the floors and keel. This was actually done in real ship building where the space between floors were filled in so the bottom of the hull was a solid mass of timber. Then from the wales up to the top of the hull it it filled in solid. The wales and upper planking will cover the solid works of the hull. This was also a method used by shipwrights and can be seen on wrecks like the Jefferson which was solid framing along the upper side of the hull.
 
it is very difficult to frame up a hull with no jig supporting it. Even wood well seasoned or kiln dried will move with changes in temp and humidity.
shipwrights when building real hulls used battens nailed to the face of frames to hold things in place.
Another idea is to use spacer blocks between frames if you use a soft wood once the hull is stable it is easy to cut the spacers out.

spacer idea will work as long as all the spacers are exactly the same size. if you are off +or- say .010 by the time you set 6 frames up you are 1/16 of an inch off. Or if the space at the keel is not dead on as the spacers at the top the frames are spreading out at the top.

there are actually 3 steps in scratch building
1 milling all the wood down to scale size
2 fabrication of all the parts
3 building the structure
 
Last edited:
THANKS ALL GUYS APPRECIATE IT ALWAYS, AND I AGREE WITH DAVE STEVENS ABOUT THE JIG I DESPERATLY NEED THE JIG PREFERATLY LIKE THE ONE USED IN THE CAUSTIC, AGAIN DUE TO AGE PROBLEM I CAN NOT CUT THE JIG ACURATLY ENOUGH TO MAKE IT WORK, I HAVE SEARCED AND ASKED ON THE FORUM AND LOCALLY WHERE I LIVE FOR SOME ONE TO LASSER CUT THE JIG WILLING TO PAY RESONABLE EVEN FOR A GANTRY TYPE JIG BUT NO RESPONCES SO I HAVE ADAPTED TO THIS A COMBO OF DAVES IDEAS AS THE USE OF FILLERS AND TEMPORARY BATTENS PLACED IN THE VEY LARGE BUILDING SLIP FROM HOBBY ZONE HAD IT FOR QUITE A WHILE, I WILL POST ANOTHER PICTURE AND AS I HAVE COMPLETED THE KEEL INNER KEEL AND KEELSON WILL SHOW THOSE ALSO, NOW LIKE THE PILLS I TAKE ALL COME WITH SIDE EFFECTS THE PROBLEM HERE IS I TAKES A LOT OF ROOM TO USE THIS BUILDING SLIP AN A METHOD OF TURNING IT SOLUTION TO SET UP A SPACE IN MY SON-IN-LAWS GARAGE OR HIS OFFICE EXTENSIO OR HOME GARAGE IN THE COMING SPRING< ALSO THOUGHT ABOUT IN for looks purpases to incorporate filler pieces in to design of the hull using a different specises of wood as the plans do indicate the use of fillers, as i do not plan on planking the hull only a couple of planks above and below the WALES, and I do need opions for the use of fillers in a different species of wood, as to NIGELS IDEA I ALREAD USE A WHITE BOARD PHOAM BOARD THE THE INS WILL TRY THE MAGNETS, AND FINALLY THANKS AGAIN TO GILLES FOR COMING BACK PLEASE SIR STAY AND NOT ONLY HELP ME BUT THE WHOLE SOS FORUM. THANKS AGAIN Don
 
this is what i am using as a JIG/BUILDING SLIP long and very heavy it shoul be OK with the use of filler pieces btw i had to cease and desist on 2 models POF because of no jig the leand ever witch way bow to ster, port to starboard off frames done just had to abandone the builds happened quite a while, i did do THE HALIFAX SEMI-KIT( FROM THE LUMBERYARD) a kit wich i would say as a modified HAHN style build NO BLANKS BUT UPSIDE DOWN COMPLETED IT SUCCESSFULLY, also showing the keel and inner keel in the building slip/jig and the keelson, again comments please
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top