LE ROCHEFORT

MIKE I APPRECIATE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AND I HAVE READ MANY INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO, I AM ONE TYPE OF PERSON THAT NEEDS TO DO TO LEARN THAT IS JUST ME, AS FOR YOUR COMMENT ON THE CONFUSSING HELP FROM GILLES NO IT IS NOT CONFUSSIN AT ALL IT IS JUST WHAT I NEEDED AS HIS GREAT PRACTORIUM OF THE GROSS VENTURE SHOWS, HIS HELP IS INVALUBLE TO ME AND I HOPE HE CONTINUES AND I ACCEPT ALL CONSTRUCTIVE CRITSEMS AND HELP I CAN GET. Don
 
I am going to jump in here

first off what I have seen in the past on these forums is the good job, nice work, that a boy which to me is not very constructive. There is also a line where people fearing to make a post that would hurt someone's feelings or being taken as rude. personally I would rather see a post in a build log I am doing asking "good god man why did you do that or hum that is not right. This is why there are so many poor planking jobs because everyone was afraid to say "dude that is totally wrong"
everyone here is adding constructive comments so everyone don't be so sensitive.
I see nothing wrong with posts #249 and #259 they make a legitimate point.

one way to approach frame construction is to abandon the method being used stop and study the method of Harold Hahn
first build a frame blank this way you can focus on the fit between the frame futtocks and make everything nice and tight. Then once you have a blank use rubber cement and glue the complete frame drawing to the blank. now you can scroll saw out the frame as one unit.
by cutting out each frame part as a separate piece and trying to build up a frame is used to conserve material because building blanks uses much more material but far more accurate.
 
We still have to find more than a couple people to publicly assist Don in his endeavor, according to the technique he wants to use to build his ship, so for what it is worth:
To help you figure out and visualize the orientation of the frames…

Just think about it this way:

1) Your are standing inside the ship: say at the center, inside the framing at the point between the forward and aft frames.

2) The forward frames are marked “AV”: which stands for “avant” (in French.

3)The aft frames are marked as “AR”: which stands for “arrière” (in French).

4) You might have a frame marked differently between the 1st AV frame and 1st AR frame at the center of the ship. If you do, this frame may be marked as “couple de levee” or “MC” (maitre couple – in French) translated as Master frame or mid-ship frame in English. Anyway, say, that would be the spot you would standing at, inside the hull. From there you would be looking forward and see all the AV frames + the bow framing of the ship, turn around and see all the AR frames and stern framing.


To read the lines and figure out what they mean to help you visualize the orientation and the definition of the parts, and subsequently, the orientation of the frame as a whole, all you have to do is convert the individual frame plan into a drawing similar to the image (kind of a 3D rendering you like) included in the last reply from Gérard about frame 2.

Again, this may take some time, but as I said before, this can be done with a photocopy or reduced printed scan of each frame where you use the solid and doted line to separate each layer with coloured crayons or highlighters to define each of those layers. Once you have that done a few time, it will eventually become “second nature” and easy to determine without physically going through the process.
 
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looking back I see what might end as a problem.

by cutting out the frame pieces by hand and then trying to use the method of assembling them using the pins will not work. This method works well if you have laser cut frames with an exact offset this way EVERYTHING is cut exactly the same, cutting parts out by hand introduces slight errors all along the process when it comes to assembly.
Now if you are really skilled and have a good scroll saw you might be able to cut proud of the line by .063 exactly every time.
 
NOW TO SHOW THE BACK SIDE OF FRAME No.1 AND THE JOINT DETAILS WHAT YOU SEE ON THE PATTEREN SIDE THAT LOOKS LIKE GAPS IT IS A DROP OF CA GLUE THAT I USE TO REINFORCE THE FRAME IT COMES OFF EASILY WHEN I TAKE THE PATTERN OFF, ALSO SHOWING FRAME NO. 16 the midship frame on the board for cutting, ANYONE CAN SUGEST SOMETHING DIFFERENT LET ME KNOW and MIKE THE FRAME No.1 is to me one of the most if not the most important FRAME as it forms the HAWSE TIMBERS ONTO THIS FRAME IT MUST BE IN ALL CASES DONE CORRECTLY AND IN MY CASE I WILL DO IT OVER AS MANY TIMES AS NECCESSARY SO AS TO AVOID PROBLEMS with the hawse timbers i have done almost half of the frames in another time they all be used and would be satisfactory to me now some are not minor problems but need to redo some to up my standards. Don20200120_173711.jpg20200120_180307.jpg
 
another idea of hull building was introduced by Portia Takakjian back a long time ago. Portia was really bad at drawing plans accurately however a master builder.
What she did was toss accuracy out the window and built frame sort of kind of close and leaving a lot of extra material inside and out not even cutting in the bevels, then assembled the entire hull.

once the hull was built she took a power sander to it and shaped the hull as one unit. when she finished the sanding and shaping the hull was perfect.

back then there was a group that poo pooed her method by saying that is not how a ship was built so it does not count. WHAT? it's a model anyway to an end is acceptable. Besides hull were not built perfectly accurate thus the term "dubbing" or giving frames their final shape.
 
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Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
another idea of hull building was introduced by Portia Takakjian back a long time ago. Portia was really bad at drawing plans accurately however a master builder.
What she did was toss accuracy out the window and built frame sort of kind of close and leaving a lot of extra material inside and out not even cutting in the bevels, then assembled the entire hull.

once the hull was built she took a power sander to it and shaped the hull as one unit. when she finished the sanding and shaping the hull was perfect.

back then there was a group that poo pooed her method by saying that is not how a ship was built so it does not count. WHAT? it a model anyway to an end is acceptable. Besides hull were not built perfectly accurate thus the term "dubbing" or giving frames their final shape.
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Don needs to take his build one step at a time to achieve his goal. That is why I left the bevels alone and eventually, once he got his frame building up to his standard, build all his frames to his standards, move on to the next step such as assembling his framing to his standards ......... that is most likely what I was going to suggest. And for that, as you say, nothing is cut to the line....
The main thing is that at this point he is building following the process he chose, so introducing new complex processes is kind of working backwards.
We can argue about the method until we are blue in the face ...The method explained is the method he chose..... it is tested and proven......


G
 
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Dave i do not cut by hand i use my band saw to rought cut the frames and then use the DREMELL TO DO MORE ROUGH CUTTING TRYING TO GET A PLEASING CURVE TO IT LEAVING PLENTY OF MEAT ON IT TO DO THE FINAL SANDING as GILLES SUGESTED. Don
 
Dave Stevens (Lumberyard) said:
another idea of hull building was introduced by Portia Takakjian back a long time ago. Portia was really bad at drawing plans accurately however a master builder.
What she did was toss accuracy out the window and built frame sort of kind of close and leaving a lot of extra material inside and out not even cutting in the bevels, then assembled the entire hull.

once the hull was built she took a power sander to it and shaped the hull as one unit. when she finished the sanding and shaping the hull was perfect.

back then there was a group that poo pooed her method by saying that is not how a ship was built so it does not count. WHAT? it's a model anyway to an end is acceptable. Besides hull were not built perfectly accurate thus the term "dubbing" or giving frames their final shape.
Click to expand...


You're right, of course, Dave. Apparently that type of elitism isn't yet dead.
 
Mr Korent:

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. You totally misinterpreted my initial post in this thread, publicly disparaged me without understanding my intent, and now, misunderstanding again, are attempting to create controversy where none exists. My comment was in response to Dave's observation that the "my way or the highway" attitude is alive and well in this hobby, but there is more than one way to accomplish any particular task. It had nothing to do with you or this build log.
 
I certaintly did and I would not have purchsed this unless someone commited to me, NOW PLEASE LEAVE THIS LOG TO GILLES AND MYSELF AND ANYONE ELSE WITH CREATIVE ANSWERS NEGATIVISM IS NOT NEEDE I NEED GILLES THIS IS A HOBBY FOR ENJOYMENT AND LEARNING SO LET US KEEP IT AT THAT I DO NEED GILLES HELP DESPERATLY IT IS NOT CONFUSING AND AS LONG AS HE IS HELPING ME I WILL NOT REPEAT NOT THOROW IN THE TOWEL I KNOW MY LIMITATIONS VERY WELL IF I DID THINK I COULD BUILD IT I WOULD NOT HAVE STARTED< SO PLASE GILLES LET US CONTINUE. Don
 
I WILL POST SOMETHING HERE THAT IS VERY PERSONAL TO ME, MY LATE WIFE HAD A SAYING THAT SHE USED CONSTANTLY AND MY CHILDREN TRY TO THIS DAY SO VERY SIMPLE YET SO HARD TO DO (IT IS NOT WHAT YOU SAY BUT HOW YOU SAY IT) she could tell someone he is an a hole and the person would walk away thinking he/she received the biggest compliment in the world, and just to clarify my position as many of you know i am completly in agreement with dave stevens about the elitism in this hobby and i CAN TELL YOU HONESTLY GILLES KORENT IS NOT ONE PERIOD
 
DAVE STEVENS as a reply to yours about using pins I really have no choice i fell twice during a period of 10 days about 4 months ago, and since then have not been able to stand without support so i can not stand for any amount of time have to adopt to the situation as they come about. Don
 
Don,
I am going to stay in the background for a while.
Looking at your latest photos , you are well on your way to successful frame assembly the way you decided to do it.
I am sure that in the meantime, members will chip in to guide you as well based on what YOU want to achieve. These willing members should be encouraged to do so with respect for you, no matter how long it takes to achieve the result you are looking for.

As the saying goes, there is always at least one "clown" in every crowd, in this case it is unfortunate 2 of them revealed themselves (well, really 1 clown and his assistant) at this point of your project.


Good continuation.
See you later.
G
 
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donfarr said:
I WILL POST SOMETHING HERE THAT IS VERY PERSONAL TO ME, MY LATE WIFE HAD A SAYING THAT SHE USED CONSTANTLY AND MY CHILDREN TRY TO THIS DAY SO VERY SIMPLE YET SO HARD TO DO (IT IS NOT WHAT YOU SAY BUT HOW YOU SAY IT) she could tell someone he is an a hole and the person would walk away thinking he/she received the biggest compliment in the world, and just to clarify my position as many of you know i am completly in agreement with dave stevens about the elitism in this hobby and i CAN TELL YOU HONESTLY GILLES KORENT IS NOT ONE PERIOD
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Don,nobody said here that Gilles is an elitist ,not sure why and how Dave @DocBlake comment can be misunderstood,for me clear what he meant.
 
I think it is now really time to come back to the building log of Don´s Rochefort and the chosen construction method of the frames.
Let us help Don further so he and also others will learn how to read such kind of drawings and to take over the given data, to be able to produce the frames.
It will not help in any way to discuss different kind of construction methods or other principles.......
So let us keep inside the TOPIC
 
Hallo Don,
hope you made some copies of the drawings, not that you cut out the pieces of the original one?
20200120_180307.jpg
I guess you need some copies.
For the frames I usually make small copies of the originals in DIN A4 or DIN A 3 on a normal copy machine - it is enough that on one paper-page one frame is visible.
I think it is easier to handle.....

donfarr said:
NOW TO CONTINUE WITH MY POSTS AND PICTURES OF THE PROGRESS SHOWING FRAME No.16 as the midship frame alittle more work on the disk sander to View attachment 129523View attachment 129524View attachment 129525get even a better fit
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And I have to say, that already the connecting joints of futtocks to floor timber etc. are looking already much much better than in the past.....
 
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