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Hms Alert by Maarten [COMPLETED BUILD]

As I was quite happy with the seringe needle treenails I have made a more permanent tool.
The needle I have silver soldered in the spare tip of my gas fueled soldering pen.
20210104_174611.jpg
20210104_174602.jpg

Ofcourse you can do this with an electric soldering iron, but the gas fueled sedering pen is small, has no wire so very easy to handle. This helps to create the treenails in spots with high accuracy.

This is just a brief test of the new tool in 5mm wide cherry wood.
20210104_174437.jpg

This is a 0,6 mm treenail, or 1" at 1:48 scale.
Think I will also prepare larger ones for other scales.
 
Maarten said:
As I was quite happy with the seringe needle treenails I have made a more permanent tool.
The needle I have silver soldered in the spare tip of my gas fueled soldering pen.
View attachment 203471
View attachment 203472

Ofcourse you can do this with an electric soldering iron, but the gas fueled sedering pen is small, has no wire so very easy to handle. This helps to create the treenails in spots with high accuracy.

This is just a brief test of the new tool in 5mm wide cherry wood.
View attachment 203473

This is a 0,6 mm treenail, or 1" at 1:48 scale.
Think I will also prepare larger ones for other scales.
Click to expand...
Ingenious! Gotta try this. Thanks for sharing.
 
Jimsky said:
This amazing, the result speaks for itself, the only challenge I foresee is how to make them 'straight in-line' You must have a steady hand, thought.
Click to expand...
Hi Jim,

With the pen soldering iron this must be possible, it is small and light.
However I am convinced these treenails should not be to neat and tidy placed to the 10th of a mm, I think that is our industrialized 21st century look at things.
A ship was a handbuild craft build under guidence of a master by shipwrights. These shipwrights used natural materials to their optimum and build as fast as possible by hand.
This means that treenails but also bolts were placed where they were optimum for the construction, and if you build with natural materials like wood the material guides you. What I mean you won t place a treenail in a natural tear in the wood, this weakens the construction, you won t place a treenail in a knot again this weakens the contruction. This means you place treenails and bolts in the best suitable spot and therefore not always in a straight line.

See below some examples:
Hms Victory ceiling.
Screenshot_20210104-232926_Google.jpg

Vasa
Screenshot_20210104-235206_Chrome.jpg

Willem Barentz replica
20190729_122708.jpg

Therefore I am doing my treenails by default not in a straight line along a ruler but just by hand with some defiations in them.
 
Good idea.
These may be silly questions from me:
Wouldn't the heated soldering iron melt the solder and release the syringe tip?
Doesn't this restrict visibility compared to using the syringe itself?

...and I agree with the randomness of bolts on real ships. I've seen some original ships and the bolts are no where near as nicely laid out as say a modern replica of an original ship.
Even in your last photo above you can see the new, restored replacement knee on the right has the holes in the original sporadic layout (one treenail is actually between the boards). A new ship or replica will have them centred vertically on the knees and centred horizontally to the boards beneath the knees.
 
JohnA said:
Good idea.
These may be silly questions from me:
Wouldn't the heated soldering iron melt the solder and release the syringe tip?
Doesn't this restrict visibility compared to using the syringe itself?

...and I agree with the randomness of bolts on real ships. I've seen some original ships and the bolts are no where near as nicely laid out as say a modern replica of an original ship.
Even in your last photo above you can see the new, restored replacement knee on the right has the holes in the original sporadic layout (one treenail is actually between the boards). A new ship or replica will have them centred vertically on the knees and centred horizontally to the boards beneath the knees.
Click to expand...
I greatly appreciate the provision of photos of actual ships and conditions as there is a great difference between actual working conditions and those for exquisite cased models. Rich (PT-2)
 
PT-2 said:
I greatly appreciate the provision of photos of actual ships and conditions as there is a great difference between actual working conditions and those for exquisite cased models.
Click to expand...
...not to mention, the timber used in the actual ships as opposed to the one for exquisite cases models. Why do we use Pearwood or boxwood? We should use oak and Elm, I guess.
 
Jimsky said:
...not to mention, the timber used in the actual ships as opposed to the one for exquisite cases models. Why do we use Pearwood or boxwood? We should use oak and Elm, I guess.
Click to expand...
Nope ,they are not good for model making,too grainy,we are building a model not a real ship
 
Nice discussion gents. It is indeed about placement of treenails and bolts only. The choice of wood using pear is realistic because it is a scaled down version of oak.
I know this is a common discussion but just want to give an idea about reality and our minute work on models.
 
JohnA said:
Good idea.
These may be silly questions from me:
Wouldn't the heated soldering iron melt the solder and release the syringe tip?
Doesn't this restrict visibility compared to using the syringe itself?

...and I agree with the randomness of bolts on real ships. I've seen some original ships and the bolts are no where near as nicely laid out as say a modern replica of an original ship.
Even in your last photo above you can see the new, restored replacement knee on the right has the holes in the original sporadic layout (one treenail is actually between the boards). A new ship or replica will have them centred vertically on the knees and centred horizontally to the boards beneath the knees.
Click to expand...
The needle is silver soldered into the tip. A soldering iron is made for soldering Tin and does not reach the temperature for melting silver. The needle wil be there forever. :-)

Regarding the precision, this handles better then the needle tip only as it better lays in your hand. Secondly it is constantly heated giving you more control over the process. You can even adjust the heat to change the effect.
 
Hi Maarten,
You know I am not particularly a fan of kits, but this time you hit a very good one. It reminds me of the days I worked in the same way, building the Dutch pinas. Friends and family all claimed that I was crazy to do all the work on the inside, where nobody would ever see it. They simply did not understand why I was building this way. It is not about making a model for the end result, it’s the system I was after and the pleasure of being a witness the process of constructing a ship as it was done ages ago.
You are doing a great job and I’m sure you can do the same without the interference of some kit company, although I must admit that this one really astonishes me. I don’t know the price, but I think it’s worth the money you paid for it.
Good luck with the rest of the build.
Ab
 
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Norway said:
@Maarten, question, I am currently working on the frame for my Rattlesnake 1-48, what dimension bolts would you recommend for this. 0.6- 0.8mm ?. Other dimensions for beams planking are also something that will be relevant later, greetings Knut-
Click to expand...
Hi Knut,
Think I would go for 0,6 mm, that is 1" in 1:48 scale. Is it the American or English rattlesnake you are building?
If it is the English cutter then it is the same as the Alert for which a table of dimensions is given in the Aots book of Alert.
 
Ab Hoving said:
Hi Maarten,
You know I am not particularly a fan of kits, but this time you hit a very good one. It reminds me of the days I worked in the same way, building the Dutch pinas. Friends and family all claimed that I was crazy to do all the work on the inside, where nobody would ever see it. They simply did not understand why I was building this way. It is not about making a model for the end result, it’s the system I was after and the pleasure of being a witness the process of constructing a ship as it was done ages ago.
You are doing a great job and I’m sure you can do the same without the interference of some kit company, although I must admit that this one really astonishes me. I don’t know the price, but I think it’s worth the money you paid for it.
Good luck with the rest of the build.
Ab
Click to expand...
Hi Ab, thx for the comment.
This kit is an in between and I have worked out some nice plans to display it. I should say the quality of the current Chinese kits is really great and with some extra attention you can create a very nice model.

I fully agree with you, it is the fun of see something grow like it did in the past. Look at all the wood constructions and learn from it.

My next build will be fully scratch. As you know I will build the Cor Emke drawn Anna Maria fluit in scale 1:36. I will build her shell first. The pear wood which I got from a pear tree orchard in Hoorn I have already quarter sawn and is drying in my workshop. Hopefully I can start with her next year. I think building shell first and using your Witsen proportion tables will again add an extra layer to building a ship.
Not only using traditional methodes but also materials. I am also testing making wireropes and using stockholmer tar on my Royal Caroline. Working with it and smelling it brings you to the 17th century shipyard. I already learned it is feasible to do it but the ropes need to be ventilated for a long time as otherwise my wife will kick out the model due to the smell :-).
 
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@Maarten, to be completely honest I'm not sure, but the plans are by Harold M Hahn, and they do not look like the drawings in Aots Alert book that I have.
If I'm not completely wrong, the Rattesnake was American Privater, but hijacked by England, later sold back to America, so I think the one she is American, BDW, it would have been nice if I could use goals from Aots Alert book as a reference for dimensions on bolts ASO, thanks for your help so far, regards-
 
Norway said:
@Maarten, to be completely honest I'm not sure, but the plans are by Harold M Hahn, and they do not look like the drawings in Aots Alert book that I have.
If I'm not completely wrong, the Rattesnake was American Privater, but hijacked by England, later sold back to America, so I think the one she is American, BDW, it would have been nice if I could use goals from Aots Alert book as a reference for dimensions on bolts ASO, thanks for your help so far, regards-
Click to expand...
If this is the three masted US privateer, former Cormorant you can also have a look at the books of the Swan class ships which are of similar size as this Rattlesnake.
If it is the two masted brig Ratlesnake which is similar size as Alert you could use the data from the Alert book.
 
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