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USS Constitution - Model Shipways

well. it seems the biggest adjustment to rope tension is the speed of the takeup pulley. It's hard to keep the tension constant but I can keep it close to constant. I think for my purposes that is enough. For now I set the takeup spool tension just enough so that the spool doesn't slip. I don't think I will adjust it anymore than that. If I keep the amount of rope on the spool not too much, very scientific term, then I don't think I will have to worry too much about the effect of diameter. THe quality is good enough for me. I am not chasing that anymore. I am just trying to have fun here not start a commercial venture.
I am not sure how much rope to make. Should I make it as needed? It would be nice if I could predict how much of each thread I would need. But that's probably not realistic. I think what I have to do next is go through the inventory of rope that is needed and figure out how to make it. Right now I have a pile of S twist rope that I need to make into Z twist. THe S twist is already at 0.4 mm. So the question bears asking, how will I make Z twist 0.4 mm rope?
My strand material is already Z twisted. So maybe I'll need to find something that isn't twisted? I'll have to look and see.

An option is to untwist the strands and retwist them S. All I would have to do is use one strand holder and run it the opposite rotation, I think. Or I could use my vertical ropewalk machine. I do know that if I run the planetary machine clockwise, the strands unfold. So maybe just doing one strand holder will work to unwrap the rope.
 
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Jack,
Since you're doing a lot of research on the subject of rope making, maybe you're the one to ask these questions..

But first, some background:
I was about to start serving the rope for the main shrouds when I realized that the 0.040" rope that came with the kit (WP 1215) seemed quite a bit thicker than the 0.043" "cable" from Ropes of Scale that used for the pendants. The RoS poly cable also has a more wraps per inch than the MS rope. I like the look of the RoS cable better than the kit MS rope. Unfortunately, I don't have enough of it to rig the lower shrouds on the main, let alone the rest of the ship. So, I went online to shop for more material. But I don't know what to get.

Q1: What's the difference between rope and cable laid rope?
Q2: What's the difference between right handed and left handed rope?
Q3: If the available options are limited to 3 ea. 5m lengths of the 1.00mm poly rope, or a seemingly unlimited supply of 1.00mm in cotton, which would you get?
 
Der Alte Rentner said:
Jack,
Since you're doing a lot of research on the subject of rope making, maybe you're the one to ask these questions..

But first, some background:
I was about to start serving the rope for the main shrouds when I realized that the 0.040" rope that came with the kit (WP 1215) seemed quite a bit thicker than the 0.043" "cable" from Ropes of Scale that used for the pendants. The RoS poly cable also has a more wraps per inch than the MS rope. I like the look of the RoS cable better than the kit MS rope. Unfortunately, I don't have enough of it to rig the lower shrouds on the main, let alone the rest of the ship. So, I went online to shop for more material. But I don't know what to get.

Q1: What's the difference between rope and cable laid rope?
Q2: What's the difference between right handed and left handed rope?
Q3: If the available options are limited to 3 ea. 5m lengths of the 1.00mm poly rope, or a seemingly unlimited supply of 1.00mm in cotton, which would you get?
Click to expand...
For Q1, I think you are asking the difference between cable laid and hawser laid rope. Cable laid is rope made with usually 3 hawser ropes. And hawser ropes is rope usually made with 3 strands.

For Q2: Z twist and right twist are the same thing. Similarly s twist or left twist are the same.
Does this diagram help:
1791222031795.png

For Q3: I don't know. I am used to working with the stuff in kits which is usually cotton and I don't like it. I purchased several sizes of poly and that is what I plan on using for the Constitution. I suppose I could try to make some ropes with cotton but I don't have any cotton strands available.
 
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You know, I am starting to get the idea that who cares whether a rope is Z or S twist as long as you alternate between layers. This will probably bring down the wrath of the rope gods on me for saying this but I don't really feel like unwrapping commercially made strands just so that I can get a Z laid hawser rope. Even if I use the vertical rope machine to unwrap the strands I don't think that is a good idea.
 
Jack Sparrow said:
For Q1, I think you are asking the difference between cable laid and hawser laid rope. Cable laid is rope made with usually 3 hawser ropes. And hawser ropes is rope usually made with 3 strands.

For Q2: Z twist and right twist are the same thing. Similarly s twist or left twist are the same.
Does this diagram help:
View attachment 641583

For Q3: I don't know. I am used to working with the stuff in kits which is usually cotton and I don't like it. I purchased several sizes of poly and that is what I plan on using for the Constitution. I suppose I could try to make some ropes with cotton but I don't have any cotton strands available.

That's what I know about this.
Click to expand...
My questions perhaps are much more basic than even that.

I can buy what Ropes of Scale calls "rope" or I can buy what ropes of scale calls "cable". Ultimately I can get either in the same diameter, and I can't tell the difference between the samples of both that I have. So, it doesn't seem to matter which I choose.

Likewise for S vs Z twist. I can get either of the above with either twist. I was just wondering if there was some reason for the differences apart from esthetics.

Since the cable that I used for the pendants is S-twist, I guess I will get the same for the shrouds and on the matter of cable versus rope, I'll buy whatever has the more available stock on hand.

Thanks
 
Der Alte Rentner said:
My questions perhaps are much more basic than even that.

I can buy what Ropes of Scale calls "rope" or I can buy what ropes of scale calls "cable". Ultimately I can get either in the same diameter, and I can't tell the difference between the samples of both that I have. So, it doesn't seem to matter which I choose.

Likewise for S vs Z twist. I can get either of the above with either twist. I was just wondering if there was some reason for the differences apart from esthetics.

Since the cable that I used for the pendants is S-twist, I guess I will get the same for the shrouds and on the matter of cable versus rope, I'll buy whatever has the more available stock on hand.

Thanks
Click to expand...
I am curious. Is the cable laid rope more expensive? It would have more twists in it and therefore stiffer rope.
Well, if you made a cable laid rope from 3 hawser ropes, which are Z twist, then the cable laid rope would be S twist.
I think some claim that the S twist is stiffer than the Z twist, but honestly, I cannot confirm or deny that.
I think mostly all the rope used in the Constitution is hawser rope so Z twist
So Z twist cable laid rope may not be useful for the constitution.
DId you check the museum site to see what they say?

So back to my dilemma which i probably will not work on. How do I make hawser z twist rope from ztwist strands? If I make an intermediate S twist step, then I no longer have hawser ropes. I have Z twist cable laid! lol

Hope I am making sense...
 
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Jack Sparrow said:
So Z twist cable laid rope may not be useful for the constitution.
DId you check the museum site to see what they say?
Click to expand...
I'm less concerned about authenticity than I am about availability. Given the turn around time, and the limited stock in any of my options, I guess I'm going to go for whichever RoS has the most of to get me started, and go back on subsequent passes to replenish what I run out of.

FWIW to those who are following the Hunt practicum. If you follow his instructions on how much 0.40" dia. black rope for the shrouds and the swifter for the main alone, that would be 40" for the swifter, and 32" for each of the shrouds pairs - and if my math doesn't fail me, that works out to 27.33 yards. The kit provides 15 yards for the entire project, which would naturally include the foremast. If you're stocking up on rope, plan well ahead...

Thanks Jack, and sorry for cluttering up your log and distracting you from the joys of rope making.
 
Der Alte Rentner said:
I'm less concerned about authenticity than I am about availability. Given the turn around time, and the limited stock in any of my options, I guess I'm going to go for whichever RoS has the most of to get me started, and go back on subsequent passes to replenish what I run out of.

FWIW to those who are following the Hunt practicum. If you follow his instructions on how much 0.40" dia. black rope for the shrouds and the swifter for the main alone, that would be 40" for the swifter, and 32" for each of the shrouds pairs - and if my math doesn't fail me, that works out to 27.33 yards. The kit provides 15 yards for the entire project, which would naturally include the foremast. If you're stocking up on rope, plan well ahead...

Thanks Jack, and sorry for cluttering up your log and distracting you from the joys of rope making.
Click to expand...
Yeah there is definitely not enough rope given with the kit. I can confirm that
No worries about cluttering up. I don't mind the feedback. Sometimes I feel like I am talking to myself. lol
 
i am going to try and untwist the mara thread individually with the strand holders in the machine and turn it into an s twist mara strand.
repeat for the other two bobbins and then make my z twist hawser rope. I have succumed to the will of the rope gods!
 
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Granted, this knowledge comes from a work of fiction, but in one of the Master and Commander books there is big fuss made about the difference between hawse laid and cable laid ropes, that being simply the direction of the twist. Ironically, ropes seem to be hawse laid, whereas hawses are cable laid, if I’m remembering that correctly. Someone please correct me to 100%.
 
Der Alte Rentner said:
Q1: What's the difference between rope and cable laid rope?
Q2: What's the difference between right handed and left handed rope?
Click to expand...
In the FWIW category, I asked Ben those questions once and here's the response he gave me.

I think the only left-hand rope you would find out in the real world are actually cable-laid ropes, three right-hand ropes twisted into a left-hand cable. I make left-handed ropes because people asked for them. It turns out my cotton threads make a nicer left-hand rope and right-hand... It's the opposite with my polyester threads.​
 
GGibson said:
In the FWIW category, I asked Ben those questions once and here's the response he gave me.

I think the only left-hand rope you would find out in the real world are actually cable-laid ropes, three right-hand ropes twisted into a left-hand cable. I make left-handed ropes because people asked for them. It turns out my cotton threads make a nicer left-hand rope and right-hand... It's the opposite with my polyester threads.​
Click to expand...
good information. thanks
 
Jack Sparrow said:
i am going to try and untwist the mara thread individually with the strand holders in the machine and turn it into an s twist mara strand.
repeat for the other two bobins and then make my z twist hawser rope. I have succumed to the will of the rope gods!
Click to expand...
i just realized even if I do this, I still will not have a true ztwist hawser because the mara strands are not monofilaments either. they are z twisted filaments. lol. too funny
 
Namabiiru said:
Granted, this knowledge comes from a work of fiction, but in one of the Master and Commander books there is big fuss made about the difference between hawse laid and cable laid ropes, that being simply the direction of the twist. Ironically, ropes seem to be hawse laid, whereas hawses are cable laid, if I’m remembering that correctly. Someone please correct me to 100%.
Click to expand...
Talk about confusing...
 
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