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Vasa - 1:65 DeAgostini [COMPLETED BUILD]
- Thread starter dockattner
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Interesting observation Stephan. Thank you for that! All of my ropes are Z (right-handed) - that must be why they are stiffer than the source threads used to make them.
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The reason I turn the ratline in S is because it's made of 2x1 thread of Serafil (120/2). When I make Z rope of this the thread will first unravel before turning up. With S twist it will start immediately turn up. I think that is the reason. 3x1 rope have the same problem. 3x2 not.
When rope gets stiff after baking. You should check the temperature of the oven and keep the time correct. 175⁰C and 5 minutes.
When rope gets stiff after baking. You should check the temperature of the oven and keep the time correct. 175⁰C and 5 minutes.
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Good thought on the baking time - but I think my time and temperature is good (350 Fahrenheit and five minutes) though I wonder how careful I have been watching the time...
Do you feel like your Z ropes are stiffer than the S ropes?
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No, only when I make 2x1, 3x1 or 4x1 rope. The reason is the twist of the yarn I use. It first unravel when I make Z rope. When I make rope with 2x2, 3x2, 4x2 or 3x3 and more the problem is gone. And honestly you can't see without microscope or macro picture if 2x1 rope is S or Z twist. This rope is 0,2 mm max. In thickness.
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only a few, not too many, please.Please just post pictures for Jim next time
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Reading this was like looking into your mind as you were working on ratlines, plenty for me to take away from this insight, thank you.Warning: this post is only for someone who is interested in what I learned doing ratlines thus far. It will not be edifying (or even of passing interest) to anyone else. If you do not give a flyer about an amateur's perspective on the challenge of ratlining, I suggest you just skip it in the hope that I will post something worthwhile in the future. And that is what I have to say on that.
Today's Entry: A Beginners Guide to Doing Ratlines.
And I don't merely mean FOR beginners, as much as I mean BY a beginner. One of my stated goals when I began this build log was to share the journey of an inexperienced builder as he encountered things that more experienced builders considered ordinary. I wanted to work through "everyone knows how to do that" wearing the shoes of "actually, I have no idea how to do that."
Early on in this build log I was able to share several (many?) of those experiences with you. But as I increasingly departed from the kit instructions, I encountered fewer opportunities to share. But doing ratlines is something many of us have or will encounter, so here are the things I have learned thus far offered in the hope that maybe there's a pearl for someone buried within.
A disclaimer: this is being written by someone who has done ratlines on a whopping total of TWO shroud sets. Arrogance? Foolishness?
A Beginners Guide
Watch a You Tube video or two. It's easier to watch someone tie a clove hitch than it is to read about it from a book...
First of all, your shrouds need to be SNUG or you will get yourself into all kinds of trouble trying to keep them straight while installing ratlines. It became clear early on that some of my shroud lines were too loose and this made things harder than it needed to be.
At each vertical station (at each ratline run) it is good to start with a length of line about twice the width of the shroud set - perhaps a bit less down low and certainly a bit more near the top.
It is called 'rattling down' but I rattled UP. I found it was easier to establish my horizontal orientation at the broader base than at the narrower top (I already had my futtock stave parallel to my channel - or nearly so).
I chose to loosely follow the line of the channel (but cheated a bit in the direction of the waterline) for the run of my ratlines. This has been discussed on other build logs and if I have it wrong, I am in good company.
It seemed logical to me to work from left to right because I tied each individual clove hitch from the top down (first time around the shroud was higher than second time around the shroud). I have seen others tie the clove hitch from bottom up so they tend to move from right to left. I tried both.
Most people (except for the superhuman archjofo) do not attempt to splice the ends, instead they use a simple overhand knot. The Vasa museum peeps suggested that a clove hitch was appropriate at the most fore and aft shrouds so that's what I did.
It is common to use a white paper background with horizontal lines drawn on it. I tried that but it didn't work for me (paper kept moving, shrouds got pulled out of vertical, ratlines wavered up and down). Kurt's batten strips solved all these problems perfectly and I will continue to do it that way. Note: I still put blank white paper behind the shroud so I could see what I was doing - there is too much visual background noise otherwise.
The only tool I used was a really high-quality curved tip pointy tweezers. You need one that will hold the line securely. I tried using a tweezers in each hand but that was a comedy of fumbles and dropped lines. Using the fingers of my 'off' hand was much better for me.
TroubleshootingDO NOT GLUE ANYTHING UNTIL YOU HAVE RUN ALL RATLINES FOR A SHROUD SET. Even if you think you have just run the perfect line do not glue it in place. Do not glue the end where you are starting. Do not glue the end where you are finishing. Do not believe the malevolent people who tell you it is OK to glue things along the way. They do not have your best interests in mind. Indeed, they want to see you suffer and then sell them your kit at a deeply discounted price. They are the spawn of Lucifer and deserve nothing but your contempt (present readership excluded unless you are guilty of perpetrating this heinous crime against shipbuilding humanity - may God be merciful on your souls).
WOW! Not sure where that came from...
The most fore and aft shrouds are vulnerable to being pulled in toward the center. This looks bad and is hard to avoid. The sandpaper lined battens help, as does having a snug shroud (no, that is not code for something - and you are a sick puppy for wondering) but neither alone will prevent this from happening. You must notice that the outer shrouds are getting pulled in AS IT IS HAPPENING and take corrective action before running the next ratline otherwise you will 'institutionalize' your mistake and end up needing to go back and re-doing an entire side.
Take care along the way to keep all lines running at your preferred horizontal. It is easy to start tipping up or down.
Once you have completed all of the ratlines for a shroud set you are roughly 2/3rds the way done. Now, because you were so clever as to NOT HAVE GLUED ANYTHING in place, you have an opportunity to go back and clean things up. Even though you were doing your best work with each clove hitch trying to do everything just so - the lines above and below influence each another and you need to solve that problem. Some of the shrouds have been pulled too close - other ratlines are sagging too much.
Here is my approach to cleaning up...
Begin with the obvious problem areas. Just look at the whole thing in total and notice what needs to be corrected and adjust the big flaws before trying to get super detailed.
Once the big stuff has been dealt with then I chose to work from the bottom up and from the center out. So, on the lowest ratlines I started in the center and adjusted knots and shrouds so that the shroud was vertically straight and the ratline was level (or slightly drooped).
This is harder than it sounds because a clove hitch tightens on itself when you try to move anything laterally. My solution was to use my tweezers and slide the knot UP AND DOWN on the shroud to loosen the clove hitch. Sometimes just doing that allowed things to get better. Other times (after loosening the clove hitch) I would need to actively move either the shroud or the ratline. Oh, my ropes are poly and I have no idea if my approach works with other rope types.
Anyway, I worked from the center all the way to the left, fixing each shroud interval and ratline as needed - and then did the same from the center to the right. Having completed one line I still resisted the urge to glue anything in place - and went up a few more ratlines before going back and only gluing the ends (I used CA for this).
Eventually you will make your way through the entire shroud set and all of the ends have been glued. Now you can refine one more time if you have it in you but at some point it all becomes silly.
So, that is what I have learned thus far. If you have things you can add from your experience let 'er rip. It's not like this build log will get long or anything like that...
Working my way from the bottom up - center out:
View attachment 299116
Getting very close now:
View attachment 299118
Lower main finished on both sides:
View attachment 299119
View attachment 299120
See, I told you to just skip this post. That's 5 minutes of your life you will never get back
@dockattner @BenD @Daniel20 can I be the stupid one for the rest of us small people who are not too versed and learning through the log.
I'm so lost with Z and S and rope and I don't know about any of that and the only thing I have put in the oven is my baked Mac and cheese.... Can someone point me in the right direction or explain what you guys are talking about??
I'm so lost with Z and S and rope and I don't know about any of that and the only thing I have put in the oven is my baked Mac and cheese.... Can someone point me in the right direction or explain what you guys are talking about??
Just ignore all that unless you are going to make your own ropes. Just buy some from Ben or use the line provided in the kit and everything is solved for you!
That works for me so will order from Ben
cause I want better rope for sure. I find a lot of kits don't come with good rope
Ben has both cotton and polyester rope. You can also get excellent ropes from Crafty Sailor. I think Dry Dock has ropes now as well. I'm sure there are others but since I make my own I haven't looked around that hard.That works for me so will order from Ben
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Not only Paul can talk a lot. I have the same problem. When you have time click here https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/make-your-rope-on-a-rope-walk.9094/
Oh Wow, all that rope stuff, rh, lh, s, z, is overwhelming. I’m still working my way through 101 plank bending. But I have to admit it‘s a very interesting subject.
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Once you start making a lot of rope it's second nature. I see rope sometimes when I'm outside around the city and walk up to it and inspect it
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Yes, rope is sexyOnce you start making a lot of rope it's second nature. I see rope sometimes when I'm outside around the city and walk up to it and inspect it
Winters are long in the Netherlands...Yes, rope is sexy
Hey Rob, Check out this link of a finished build by one of the premier ship modelers on this forum. When I reviewed his log and saw the best looking real looking rope ever I said to myself I'm going to learn to do that. (https://shipsofscale.com/sosforums/threads/pinnace-papegojan-1627-1-48-completed-build.7055/)
Its like icing on a cake, if your going to spend the time with the model why not decorate in a top notch fashion. Aftermarket blocks are also an essential item to look into.
Thank you because this is pretty interesting even though it's way past my pay grade lol
I want to do this but it feels so intimidating to make rope.... But it looks soooooooo good