Kingfisher 1770 1:48 POF

[Tobias]

Good morning Paul,
some time ago you wrote in a post about La Palme "one of the most beautiful POF buildings in this forum", I was very touched. I can only return this compliment. Your work is stunningly accurate and cleanly executed. I look forward to every new update from you and the kingfisher, an absolutely fantastic achievement Paul.

 

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Small ships like the swan class series did not have a continuous orlop deck. Instead, they had fore and aft platforms. Understandably, the kit makes no provision for these platforms so if they are to be included on my model, they must be fabricated from scratch.

The Swan Class Sloops have an orlop deck. You are now building the fore and after platforms in the hold. The orlop deck is the deck on top of the hold and under the upper deck (gun deck). For my sloop it is shown in the RMG drawing ZAZ4664.

I love your precise and accurate work, Paul. Very well done.
You could use for the treenails the simplified version as normally seen on models, or the sheme with treenails on the ledges and dowels on the beams. I've seen this by Remco's Kingfisher build.

To make the the notches is a huge amount of work. It is not possible to do this with a table saw. The easiest way is in my opinion a mill. There you have also to cut the round corners with a sharp chissel. You can also use only chissels for the cutting. A third solution is, to laminate the beams as a lot of kit producers do. I would go with a mill or chissels. It's looking much better than laminated beams.

 

[dockattner]

No idea to make them easy if they are all different. Maybe make a standard one and only adjust them when in place? I would do like that, just handwork and a lot of building hours.

I would cut the notches using my mill with the beam laid on it's side using a 1mm cutter then square the bottom corners with a scalpel. You still have to mark them out accurately with a very sharp pencil, no mass production here I'm afraid.

To make the the notches is a huge amount of work. It is not possible to do this with a table saw. The easiest way is in my opinion a mill. There you have also to cut the round corners with a sharp chissel. You can also use only chissels for the cutting. A third solution is, to laminate the beams as a lot of kit producers do. I would go with a mill or chissels. It's looking much better than laminated beams.

Thanks guys! It seems the solution lies with a mill followed by handwork. Of course, that leaves plenty of issues for this inexperienced builder: layout for pocket locations, mill setup, milling that is done precisely... And how do I mill in pockets once the fabrication begins? Or do I need to complete all the milling prior to ANY fabrication (everything created as a dry fit off the ship and then build in place on the ship itself?). For some reason I'm having a hard time envisioning the workflow.

 

[dockattner]

The Swan Class Sloops have an orlop deck. You are now building the fore and after platforms in the hold. The orlop deck is the deck on top of the hold and under the upper deck (gun deck). For my sloop it is shown in the RMG drawing ZAZ4664.

I love your precise and accurate work, Paul. Very well done.
You could use for the treenails the simplified version as normally seen on models, or the sheme with treenails on the ledges and dowels on the beams. I've seen this by Remco's Kingfisher build.

To make the the notches is a huge amount of work. It is not possible to do this with a table saw. The easiest way is in my opinion a mill. There you have also to cut the round corners with a sharp chissel. You can also use only chissels for the cutting. A third solution is, to laminate the beams as a lot of kit producers do. I would go with a mill or chissels. It's looking much better than laminated beams.

Hi Christian,

My thanks for the clarification and proper nomenclature: the lowest continuous deck is named the orlop deck? I have just been calling that the 'lower deck' in my head.

I agree that some sort of simplified treenailing would be good here. I am very familiar with Remco's work - it is at a level only to be admired not replicated. I also have Toni's Atalanta and Dan's Vulture (RIP) scratch builds cued up on my computer for reference. Dan did use a table saw to cut pockets but then needed to go back and scab in a piece to create the floor of the pocket. It actually looks very good, but I think it will be easier for me to be precise with a mill as you and Nigel have suggested.

The kit only includes an upper deck and uses the lamination approach for the beams. I'll have to make a decision once I get that far. But first I need to scratch build the lower (orlop?) deck. I may end up simplifying that in order to keep some of the sight lines more open??? It's hard to make good decisions when you've never done this before...

 

[dockattner]

Good morning Paul,
some time ago you wrote in a post about La Palme "one of the most beautiful POF buildings in this forum", I was very touched. I can only return this compliment. Your work is stunningly accurate and cleanly executed. I look forward to every new update from you and the kingfisher, an absolutely fantastic achievement Paul.

You are far too kind, Tobias (blushing). But coming on the heels of a day filled with comprehensive failure on my side I'll take it all in and feel encouraged to press on. The fabrication of the forward platform(s) is the second time in this build that I'm wondering if I can do it or not (the first was the hawse timbers). The various angles and location requirements has me completely baffled when it comes to fabrication. A full day's work went in the bin at 8:00 pm last night and I curled up in a fetal position and cried myself to sleep ...

 

[NMBROOK]

Paul, my two cents, you need to temporarily instal you beams and mark out all the notches for the Carlings then remove and mill them.

Refit the notched beams (dry) and temporarily fit the Carlings and mark the notches for the Ledges.

Remove the Carlings and mill the notches.

You can then apply finish before final assembly if you choose.

 

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Paul,

the name orlop deck is given by the original drawing which I mentioned in my earlier post. If you have a look in Lavery "Building the wooden walls" you will find the following names for the decks (from bottom to top) of a 74 gun ship:
orlop deck
lower deck
upper deck
quarter deck, fore deck.

Sometimes the lower deck is also called the gun deck (for example Dodds and Moore). On smaller vessels the name gun deck is common for the lower deck.

 

[AnobiumPunctatum]

Thanks guys! It seems the solution lies with a mill followed by handwork. Of course, that leaves plenty of issues for this inexperienced builder: layout for pocket locations, mill setup, milling that is done precisely... And how do I mill in pockets once the fabrication begins? Or do I need to complete all the milling prior to ANY fabrication (everything created as a dry fit off the ship and then build in place on the ship itself?). For some reason I'm having a hard time envisioning the workflow.

The workflow is not as complicated, as you think:

1. Make copies from the drawings from the Antscherl book and glue one copy toegether. Check -if you like- also the position of the beams with the correct position given for Kingfisher.
2. Prepare all beams and dryfit them at the correct position in the hull. You have allway small differences compared to the drawings.
3. Place the beams on the correct position of the copy and mark the center-line of the beams.
4. Take another copy, cut the beams out and glue them on top of the beams.
5. The notches have half of the thicknes of the carlings, so you can now mark their thickness on the beams
6. Mill and cut the notches fat the beams.
7. Next you can prepare the carlings on your template. For the length think that the length (curved line of the deck) can be slighty longer tha on the top view.
8. Copy the template on top, mark the depth and cut the notches.
9. Build the finished parts without glue on your template
10. Add the ledges
11. Now you can glue the parts to your ship and add the different knees.

For my model I think I will build a small jig and not only use the copy of the drawings to simplify the steps.

 

[dockattner]

Paul, my two cents, you need to temporarily instal you beams and mark out all the notches for the Carlings then remove and mill them.

Refit the notched beams (dry) and temporarily fit the Carlings and mark the notches for the Ledges.

Remove the Carlings and mill the notches.

You can then apply finish before final assembly if you choose.

The workflow is not as complicated, as you think:

1. Make copies from the drawings from the Antscherl book and glue one copy toegether. Check -if you like- also the position of the beams with the correct position given for Kingfisher.
2. Prepare all beams and dryfit them at the correct position in the hull. You have allway small differences compared to the drawings.
3. Place the beams on the correct position of the copy and mark the center-line of the beams.
4. Take another copy, cut the beams out and glue them on top of the beams.
5. The notches have half of the thicknes of the carlings, so you can now mark their thickness on the beams
6. Mill and cut the notches fat the beams.
7. Next you can prepare the carlings on your template. For the length think that the length (curved line of the deck) can be slighty longer tha on the top view.
8. Copy the template on top, mark the depth and cut the notches.
9. Build the finished parts without glue on your template
10. Add the ledges
11. Now you can glue the parts to your ship and add the different knees.

For my model I think I will build a small jig and not only use the copy of the drawings to simplify the steps.

My thanks, gentlemen, for your guidance. Conceptually this makes sense.

Is there a way to standardize the work on the mill? I have added a gauge to my MF70 so I can know the vertical depth of cut - but how do I control the horizontal runs (front to back and left to right)? Just count the number of turns of the wheels?

And how about the many times the notch is not perpendicular to the surface of the beam/carling (at the bow and stern especially) - how is that handled? By hand after the notch is cut? Angle the work piece ahead of time?

Sorry to be such a dunce but I have never used a tool like this (a mill) for anything other than cutting a rabbet...

And to the rest of you...stop laughing at me !

 

[Steef66]

Sorry

 

[Jack Sparrow]

My thanks, gentlemen, for your guidance. Conceptually this makes sense.

Is there a way to standardize the work on the mill? I have added a gauge to my MF70 so I can know the vertical depth of cut - but how do I control the horizontal runs (front to back and left to right)? Just count the number of turns of the wheels?

And how about the many times the notch is not perpendicular to the surface of the beam/carling (at the bow and stern especially) - how is that handled? By hand after the notch is cut? Angle the work piece ahead of time?

Sorry to be such a dunce but I have never used a tool like this (a mill) for anything other than cutting a rabbet...

And to the rest of you...stop laughing at me !

well, I have the MF70 and I purchased a kit for converting it to a CNC machine. I have not put it together yet, but that may be one possibility for getting reproducable results. But then you enter the realm of the dark side.

 

[NMBROOK]

My thanks, gentlemen, for your guidance. Conceptually this makes sense.

Is there a way to standardize the work on the mill? I have added a gauge to my MF70 so I can know the vertical depth of cut - but how do I control the horizontal runs (front to back and left to right)? Just count the number of turns of the wheels?

And how about the many times the notch is not perpendicular to the surface of the beam/carling (at the bow and stern especially) - how is that handled? By hand after the notch is cut? Angle the work piece ahead of time?

Sorry to be such a dunce but I have never used a tool like this (a mill) for anything other than cutting a rabbet...

And to the rest of you...stop laughing at me !

Clamp the beams on their side direct to the table with the ends parallel to the table slots when viewed from above.That way the slots you mill will be perpendicular to the waterline athwartship

If you have never used a mill before I suggest you practice on some cheap scrap timber to master using the X and Y dials. NOT boxwood

 

[Jack Sparrow]

You may also have to see if there is any movement in the x and y axes. There are set screws that you can adjust to make the axes tighter. THe manual describes the procedure for adjusting these:

 

[Chestcutter]

I know none of you have slept well in anticipation of the preliminary sanding of the aft cant frames... So here is a photo tour:

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There is still more to do but I need to take a break. In particular I need to further refine where the frames merge with the deadwood (and this is true at the front of the ship as well) but sanding has lost its charm (if it ever had that rare and desirable quality).

The overall appearance:

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Onward!

Hi dockattner,
Can I ask what are these metal blocks, what do you use them for and where can one buy some?
Also in later posts you demonstrate your trenails test. How do you get a 0.5mm diameter piece of wood into the frames with such a tight fit? Truly beautiful work.
Still reading through this log.
Sorry not up to date yet.
Thanks for taking time to answer my questions.

michael (aka chestcutter).

 

[Corsair]

Hi dockattner,
Can I ask what are these metal blocks, what do you use them for and where can one buy some?
Also in later posts you demonstrate your trenails test. How do you get a 0.5mm diameter piece of wood into the frames with such a tight fit? Truly beautiful work.
Still reading through this log.
Sorry not up to date yet.
Thanks for taking time to answer my questions.

michael (aka chestcutter).

The metal blocks are machinist blocks. They are 1"x2"x3" and square. I got some from Amazon a while ago.
Sorry Doc, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

 

[dockattner]

Hi dockattner,
Can I ask what are these metal blocks, what do you use them for and where can one buy some?
Also in later posts you demonstrate your trenails test. How do you get a 0.5mm diameter piece of wood into the frames with such a tight fit? Truly beautiful work.
Still reading through this log.
Sorry not up to date yet.
Thanks for taking time to answer my questions.

michael (aka chestcutter).

Jeff has it right. They are called 1-2-3 machinist blocks and if you search for them on the internet you will find all sorts of buying opportunities - even in OZ.

What do I use them for? Lots of little things... they are a perfect 90 degree angle to assist in parts fabrication, they are heavier than they look so I use them to weigh stuff down (just used them last night to hold down planking on a small platform that covers the hold - I also used them to hold down frames on a piece of glass to keep them flat as the glue set up)... Are they essential to the build? Certainly not. But they come in handy and I use them more than I thought I would. Even bought a second pair.

Trenails. First here is a tutorial that describes my exact processing:

HMS Kingfisher/ King's Fisher - Tedboat [COMPLETED BUILD]

It's Sunday, the rain has stopped and the sun is breaking through. No jobs needing doing, so time for a few more photos (assuming you are all still interested!) More use of temporary splines to ensure full alignment, and a further view of the jig, which has aroused interest. Interior of...

shipsofscale.com

The final size of my trenails is 0.55 to 0.58 mm.

Now, when it comes time to install them I used a piece of tape to set a line (easier for me than trying to make a straight pencil line), created a small indentation in the planking (or whatever) using a very sharp awl/scribe, then drilled out the hole using a small powered drill. You can find lots of fine drill bits but you need to measure them. For example, what I have that is labelled as 0.6 mm is actually 0.55 mm (others are wrong in the opposite direction). Anyway, I find a drill bit that is just a bit larger than my trenail stock (my goal was 0.6 mm), dip the tip of the trenail stock in diluted white glue, stick the trenail in the hole and snip off with fine side cutters. The fit is rather tight so it helps to further push the trenial into the planking - for this I use the wooden handle on the awl/scribe.

After I complete a section I just sand down the excess trenail to the surface of the planking (never stopping short of 320 grit which seems to be the sweet-spot for boxwood to take on a silk-like finish). The watered-down glue is helplessly weak so I don't think I am getting any holding power out of it - but it does create a place for the sanding dust to sneak into any gaps and create the illusion of a perfect fit. By the time I get some wipe-on-poly on there I suspect everything is locked in place. If they start falling out you will hear me screaming all the way on the other side of the planet so you'll know...

You will see that other modelers are using toothpicks or making tapered trenail stock with a sanding disc. The taper promotes a perfect fit every time but care must be taken to use uniform pressure or some of the trenails will be larger than others. Is that visible at nominal viewing distance - I doubt it - so its probably a non-issue.

Perhaps others can share what they have learned as well?

 

[Don Case]

How deep do you make the holes for the treenails?

 

[Steef66]

Perhaps others can share what they have learned as well?

When you don't drill to deep, you can use laminate floor filler. lots of different colours and easy to do. Just rub it in the holes. Works perfect. I used poly clay, almost the same thing if you find the right colour.

https://www.amazon.com/Coconix-Floor-Furniture-Repair-Kit/dp/B07JCB5WRV/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?keywords=Laminate+Floor+Repair&qid=1706024873&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

 

[dockattner]

How deep do you make the holes for the treenails?

My drill holes are very shallow, Don. Maybe no more than 2 mm (I am not trying to make functional treenails for strength purposes). My reason for being shallow is there is planking on the other side of the frames that I do not want to penetrate. Of course the treenails should hit the frames, but sometimes I miss .

 

[dockattner]

Here is where we were on the aft platform before my digression into figuring out how to cut pockets for carlings and ledges...



The opening at the bottom of the picture is a scuttle that leads to a fish hold (or on some later ships a spirit room). I wanted to represent half of the hatch leading to that space. First, I needed to make a faux hinge by soldering a bit of brass wire to a PE hinge sourced from my Vasa kit.



Trimmed up, burnished, and placed on the half-hatch:





Not great, but good enough for something you won't be able to see .

And while I was burnishing something I added some brass sheaves (these were purchased but had to be sanded down to fit the 1 mm slot in the fixed block):



Here is the final appearance of the aft platform:









There should be some bulkheads/dividing walls under the platform but I'm leaving them off.

I had to take several shots at the forward platform(s). I struggled here. The geometry of the platforms and the geometry of the interior hull would not cooperate and there were some wasted hours. In the midst of my struggles I failed to take progress photos, but here is the final result:







Nothing has been fixed in place so there are some minor alignment issues. There are things above these platforms that need to align with the platforms, so I'll postpone glueing anything down for a few months...

Thanks for the visit!